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Rector attacks mosque call to prayer
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| The Rev Charlie Cleverly |
The rector of one of Oxford's largest Anglican churches last night called plans to broadcast the Muslim call to prayer from the city's main mosque "un-English".
Charlie Cleverly, of St Aldate's Church, in a seven-point statement to his congregation, called on the Central Mosque, in Manzil Way, to drop its plans to broadcast the messages.
But Munir Chisti, the Imam at the mosque, said people were entitled to different viewpoints and they did not wish to cause a division in the community.
Click here to listen to a podcast of the call to prayer
Mr Cleverly, who has been the rector at St Aldate's for five years, said he welcomed Muslims in Oxford and hoped a local dialogue between the faiths could be established.
However, he said the call to prayer was not "neutral" in its wording and could turn East Oxford into a Muslim ghetto.
He said: "I think it's to do with nuisance noise affecting the inhabitants that have to hear it. I feel it is un-English and very different from a bell.
"When such an area is subject to such a call to prayer, it may force people to move out and encourage Muslim families to move in.
 |
| Imam Munir Chisti |
"You do risk creating a kind of ghetto-isation of the city a few years down the line. I hope and pray the Imam will hear the strength of feeling gently and lovingly and change his mind."
Mr Cleverly said he hoped this issue would forge important friendships between the two communities, but he was worried about the content of the calls.
He said: "I think many people who are not Muslims have not got a text of the meaning of the Arabic in the call to prayer.
"I don't think words are neutral and I don't think the people of Oxford necessarily want to hear a call to prayer to Allah in the same way people don't want someone loud in their face asking them to buy coffee.
"There is a world of difference. Bells are just a signal and have been around for 1,500 years. They are a terribly English part of our culture.
"I do not believe in the imposition of another culture on our country."
Before coming to St Aldate's, Mr Cleverley worked at church in a largely Muslim area of Paris.
He said: "There was not a hint or thought for a call to prayer and the Muslims lived and worshipped very happily.
"In that part of Paris, it was unthinkable. I think the French have got it right."
Mr Chisti said: "We do not want to react. Everyone is welcome to think what they want.
"We welcome anybody to have their say. This was a suggestion that has spread like fire and caused a panic in the community - we do not want that to happen."
He said the intention was to broadcast the two-minute call to prayer only once a week - and not three times a day.
He said: "Anyone who wants to see what Islam is about is invited to come along and see the prayers.
"Hopefully watching the call to prayer will take all the panic away from the public.
"This is once a week on a Friday afternoon. I do not think it is going to cause problems for anyone. I think 60 to 70 per cent of people are happy with this, and think it should go ahead.
"The majority of people are happy and they know there is a freedom of speech and a freedom of religion."
6:00am Wednesday 30th January 2008
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CommentPosted by: Mr Ison, England on 6:37am Wed 30 Jan 08
I think the rector looks untrustworthy.
I think the rector looks untrustworthy.
Posted by: Jon, Cowley on 7:05am Wed 30 Jan 08
Well said the rector of St Aldate's Church,
its good to hear a church leader talking talking such common sense and for being so much in tune with local residents. Well done.
Well said the rector of St Aldate's Church,
its good to hear a church leader talking talking such common sense and for being so much in tune with local residents. Well done.
Posted by: Rich, USA on 7:35am Wed 30 Jan 08
Well finally someone is saying what we all non Muslims agree on, Oxford does not need this call to prayer blasted out over loud speakers,They say it is just once a week, on Friday afternoon, maybe to start with, just like when all the Asians arrived from Uganda back in the 70's, that was just a few, then the floodgates opened, and now the country is over run, would be the same with the call to prayer, it would start off being just Friday afternoon, next will come Friday evening, then Friday and Monday, and before you can turn around it will be every day of the week, three times a day, and not just the one Mosque, they will all be wanting to do it, Britain does not need a call to prayer, if non Muslims can remember what time of day it is to pray with someone belting it out over loudspeakers, then the Muslims should be able to, seems they have remembered alright so far.
Well finally someone is saying what we all non Muslims agree on, Oxford does not need this call to prayer blasted out over loud speakers,They say it is just once a week, on Friday afternoon, maybe to start with, just like when all the Asians arrived from Uganda back in the 70's, that was just a few, then the floodgates opened, and now the country is over run, would be the same with the call to prayer, it would start off being just Friday afternoon, next will come Friday evening, then Friday and Monday, and before you can turn around it will be every day of the week, three times a day, and not just the one Mosque, they will all be wanting to do it, Britain does not need a call to prayer, if non Muslims can remember what time of day it is to pray with someone belting it out over loudspeakers, then the Muslims should be able to, seems they have remembered alright so far.
Posted by: Bert on 7:46am Wed 30 Jan 08
As a local resident and an OAP I frequently visit the doctors on Manzil Way. On a Friday, and sometimes other days the visitors to the mosque park in the patient's parking places, this means people not so able to get about find they can not park near the surgery.
As a local resident and an OAP I frequently visit the doctors on Manzil Way. On a Friday, and sometimes other days the visitors to the mosque park in the patient's parking places, this means people not so able to get about find they can not park near the surgery.
Posted by: Stanley, Iffley Road on 7:59am Wed 30 Jan 08
Same with the mosque on Stanley Road, cars double parked, parked on corners, covering driveways and on double yellows, but no wardens ever to be seen....
Same with the mosque on Stanley Road, cars double parked, parked on corners, covering driveways and on double yellows, but no wardens ever to be seen....
Posted by: Rob, Oxford on 9:16am Wed 30 Jan 08
[quote][bold]Rich[/bold] wrote:
Well finally someone is saying what we all non Muslims agree on, Oxford does not need this call to prayer blasted out over loud speakers,They say it is just once a week, on Friday afternoon, maybe to start with, just like when all the Asians arrived from Uganda back in the 70's, that was just a few, then the floodgates opened, and now the country is over run, would be the same with the call to prayer, it would start off being just Friday afternoon, next will come Friday evening, then Friday and Monday, and before you can turn around it will be every day of the week, three times a day, and not just the one Mosque, they will all be wanting to do it, Britain does not need a call to prayer, if non Muslims can remember what time of day it is to pray with someone belting it out over loudspeakers, then the Muslims should be able to, seems they have remembered alright so far.[/quote] Rich USA,
I'm assuming the USA bit is an indication of your location. In which case, you seem to be utterly unqualified to speak on behalf of non Muslims in Oxford. I can only imagine your view of Britain is filtered through the websites (and comments pages) of the Oxford Mail, Daily Mail et al. Just for the record, I live in East Oxford, which is in no way "over-run" by Muslims and I can't see how a call to prayer will suddenly create a Muslim ghetto in the area.
I'm surprised that you think English culture so fragile that a call to prayer from a mosque near Cowley Road will destroy the very fabric of it. But then you live in the USA, a country obsessed with fear and paranoia.
Rich wrote:
Well finally someone is saying what we all non Muslims agree on, Oxford does not need this call to prayer blasted out over loud speakers,They say it is just once a week, on Friday afternoon, maybe to start with, just like when all the Asians arrived from Uganda back in the 70's, that was just a few, then the floodgates opened, and now the country is over run, would be the same with the call to prayer, it would start off being just Friday afternoon, next will come Friday evening, then Friday and Monday, and before you can turn around it will be every day of the week, three times a day, and not just the one Mosque, they will all be wanting to do it, Britain does not need a call to prayer, if non Muslims can remember what time of day it is to pray with someone belting it out over loudspeakers, then the Muslims should be able to, seems they have remembered alright so far.
Rich USA,
I'm assuming the USA bit is an indication of your location. In which case, you seem to be utterly unqualified to speak on behalf of non Muslims in Oxford. I can only imagine your view of Britain is filtered through the websites (and comments pages) of the Oxford Mail, Daily Mail et al. Just for the record, I live in East Oxford, which is in no way "over-run" by Muslims and I can't see how a call to prayer will suddenly create a Muslim ghetto in the area.
I'm surprised that you think English culture so fragile that a call to prayer from a mosque near Cowley Road will destroy the very fabric of it. But then you live in the USA, a country obsessed with fear and paranoia.
Posted by: Jock, Headington on 9:55am Wed 30 Jan 08
Parking is a problem outsie St Clements Church on the busy Marston Road too. Shall we get them to close down?
Parking is a problem outsie St Clements Church on the busy Marston Road too. Shall we get them to close down?
Posted by: Peter Metro, Oxford on 9:57am Wed 30 Jan 08
But they are not parked on double yellow lines along Marston Road or in a parking space at a doctors surgery are they Jock?
But they are not parked on double yellow lines along Marston Road or in a parking space at a doctors surgery are they Jock?
Posted by: Lauren, Oxford on 10:11am Wed 30 Jan 08
[quote][bold]Rob[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Rich[/bold] wrote: Well finally someone is saying what we all non Muslims agree on, Oxford does not need this call to prayer blasted out over loud speakers,They say it is just once a week, on Friday afternoon, maybe to start with, just like when all the Asians arrived from Uganda back in the 70\'s, that was just a few, then the floodgates opened, and now the country is over run, would be the same with the call to prayer, it would start off being just Friday afternoon, next will come Friday evening, then Friday and Monday, and before you can turn around it will be every day of the week, three times a day, and not just the one Mosque, they will all be wanting to do it, Britain does not need a call to prayer, if non Muslims can remember what time of day it is to pray with someone belting it out over loudspeakers, then the Muslims should be able to, seems they have remembered alright so far.[/quote] Rich USA, I\'m assuming the USA bit is an indication of your location. In which case, you seem to be utterly unqualified to speak on behalf of non Muslims in Oxford. I can only imagine your view of Britain is filtered through the websites (and comments pages) of the Oxford Mail, Daily Mail et al. Just for the record, I live in East Oxford, which is in no way \"over-run\" by Muslims and I can\'t see how a call to prayer will suddenly create a Muslim ghetto in the area. I\'m surprised that you think English culture so fragile that a call to prayer from a mosque near Cowley Road will destroy the very fabric of it. But then you live in the USA, a country obsessed with fear and paranoia.[/quote] I also live in East Oxford, over run is an understatement!.. Isn;t it right that muslims have moaned when church bells ring, saying we're being racist?.. But they find it perfectly okay to have a call to prayer echoed around Oxford. It's ridiculous.
Rob wrote:
Rich wrote: Well finally someone is saying what we all non Muslims agree on, Oxford does not need this call to prayer blasted out over loud speakers,They say it is just once a week, on Friday afternoon, maybe to start with, just like when all the Asians arrived from Uganda back in the 70\'s, that was just a few, then the floodgates opened, and now the country is over run, would be the same with the call to prayer, it would start off being just Friday afternoon, next will come Friday evening, then Friday and Monday, and before you can turn around it will be every day of the week, three times a day, and not just the one Mosque, they will all be wanting to do it, Britain does not need a call to prayer, if non Muslims can remember what time of day it is to pray with someone belting it out over loudspeakers, then the Muslims should be able to, seems they have remembered alright so far.
Rich USA, I\'m assuming the USA bit is an indication of your location. In which case, you seem to be utterly unqualified to speak on behalf of non Muslims in Oxford. I can only imagine your view of Britain is filtered through the websites (and comments pages) of the Oxford Mail, Daily Mail et al. Just for the record, I live in East Oxford, which is in no way \"over-run\" by Muslims and I can\'t see how a call to prayer will suddenly create a Muslim ghetto in the area. I\'m surprised that you think English culture so fragile that a call to prayer from a mosque near Cowley Road will destroy the very fabric of it. But then you live in the USA, a country obsessed with fear and paranoia.
I also live in East Oxford, over run is an understatement!.. Isn;t it right that muslims have moaned when church bells ring, saying we're being racist?.. But they find it perfectly okay to have a call to prayer echoed around Oxford. It's ridiculous.
Posted by: Tony Brett, Oxford on 10:26am Wed 30 Jan 08
This is the rector of a church that plays no part in any of the interfaith work that goes on in Oxford. It's no wonder he is not in favour of allowing a Muslim call to prayer.
Cleverly is displaying a very thinly veiled attack on Islam in Oxford here and I want to point out that his view is not that of many other Christian churches in an around Oxford, Anglicans included.
Perhaps someone should ask him why his church doesn't take part in the very successful annual Oxford Interfaith Walk? Many other Oxford Christian churches do, including St. Mary's and St. Michael at the Northgate - both also large Anglican City Centre Churches.
This is the rector of a church that plays no part in any of the interfaith work that goes on in Oxford. It's no wonder he is not in favour of allowing a Muslim call to prayer.
Cleverly is displaying a very thinly veiled attack on Islam in Oxford here and I want to point out that his view is not that of many other Christian churches in an around Oxford, Anglicans included.
Perhaps someone should ask him why his church doesn't take part in the very successful annual Oxford Interfaith Walk? Many other Oxford Christian churches do, including St. Mary's and St. Michael at the Northgate - both also large Anglican City Centre Churches.
Posted by: jock, Headington on 10:40am Wed 30 Jan 08
Since it seems this story will run and run in the national media anyway, perhaps someone at the Oxford Mail or Times could clarify what actually has happened, because the truth as I've been told it differs significantly from anything that "commentators" seem to have said about it and I wonder who is running what agenda.
Is it true, for example, that no such "request" has actually been made to any authority? Is it true that a "petition" suggesting that banning the call to prayer as a planning condition of the mosque was not fair, signed by two people, the Imam himself and the main protagonist a Christian inter-faith ministry chap (Canon Partridge?) whose idea it was? In line with any such petition it was reported to the relevant area committee of the council who had a discussion about it. And all this was reported as some mass movement on the part of Oxford's Muslims to demand they be allowed to broadcast the call to prayer? When in fact even most members of the mosque were completely unaware that any such petition was lodged (how could they if it was just in a letter from two of them!) and few if any actually want this.
Because frankly the re[porting of it, if that is the case, and the ever more intrusive involvement in the story by well meaning "outsiders" who appear not to know what actually happened is stoking up racial and religious divides rather than breaking them down and is irresponsible.
Since it seems this story will run and run in the national media anyway, perhaps someone at the Oxford Mail or Times could clarify what actually has happened, because the truth as I've been told it differs significantly from anything that "commentators" seem to have said about it and I wonder who is running what agenda.
Is it true, for example, that no such "request" has actually been made to any authority? Is it true that a "petition" suggesting that banning the call to prayer as a planning condition of the mosque was not fair, signed by two people, the Imam himself and the main protagonist a Christian inter-faith ministry chap (Canon Partridge?) whose idea it was? In line with any such petition it was reported to the relevant area committee of the council who had a discussion about it. And all this was reported as some mass movement on the part of Oxford's Muslims to demand they be allowed to broadcast the call to prayer? When in fact even most members of the mosque were completely unaware that any such petition was lodged (how could they if it was just in a letter from two of them!) and few if any actually want this.
Because frankly the re[porting of it, if that is the case, and the ever more intrusive involvement in the story by well meaning "outsiders" who appear not to know what actually happened is stoking up racial and religious divides rather than breaking them down and is irresponsible.
Posted by: shabba ranks, cowley on 10:53am Wed 30 Jan 08
i think it will be a good idea having this call of prayer heard among the community as it informs people the time of prayer
i think it will be a good idea having this call of prayer heard among the community as it informs people the time of prayer
Posted by: kelbun, Oxford on 11:08am Wed 30 Jan 08
[quote][bold]shabba ranks[/bold] wrote:
i think it will be a good idea having this call of prayer heard among the community as it informs people the time of prayer [/quote] Yes I agree if you live in Lahore or Karachi but this is a historic city in England with English customs and English laws
shabba ranks wrote:
i think it will be a good idea having this call of prayer heard among the community as it informs people the time of prayer
Yes I agree if you live in Lahore or Karachi but this is a historic city in England with English customs and English laws
Posted by: Mr Ison, England on 11:24am Wed 30 Jan 08
And peopled with pre-christians.
And peopled with pre-christians.
Posted by: K, Cowley Road on 11:30am Wed 30 Jan 08
[quote][bold]shabba ranks[/bold] wrote:
i think it will be a good idea having this call of prayer heard among the community as it informs people the time of prayer [/quote] Do you not have a wristwatch or a mobile phone? Maybe my business should be allowed to put out a "call to work" every Monday morning at 8.45am - after all, I employ a similar number of people as worship at the Mosque, so why shouldn't I be able to be anti-social and wake those who work nights/babies etc?
To be honest, I don't really care. I'm moving out of East Oxford before a politically-correct councillor forces this through.
shabba ranks wrote:
i think it will be a good idea having this call of prayer heard among the community as it informs people the time of prayer
Do you not have a wristwatch or a mobile phone? Maybe my business should be allowed to put out a "call to work" every Monday morning at 8.45am - after all, I employ a similar number of people as worship at the Mosque, so why shouldn't I be able to be anti-social and wake those who work nights/babies etc?
To be honest, I don't really care. I'm moving out of East Oxford before a politically-correct councillor forces this through.
Posted by: Farouk Patel, Chepstow on 12:23pm Wed 30 Jan 08
Now before anybody paints me as a racist I am not, but I feel this subject needs a little context.
In the UK people can complain about Church bells and take the matter to court , but complaining about a call to prayer castigates you as a racist?
In the UK Muslims complain about being oppressed because of their religion , yet we allow Muslims to oppress women because of their religion
In the UK Pigs are censored in case they offend Muslims, yet has anybody done so for the Jews?
The reason we bend over backwards for Muslims and nobody else is because we fear what they will do if we don’t comply. Before it used to be called racist, now we literally fear them. As I said I’m no racist. But how about for a start we start treating everybody the same with no cop outs for ones faith.
Now before anybody paints me as a racist I am not, but I feel this subject needs a little context.
In the UK people can complain about Church bells and take the matter to court , but complaining about a call to prayer castigates you as a racist?
In the UK Muslims complain about being oppressed because of their religion , yet we allow Muslims to oppress women because of their religion
In the UK Pigs are censored in case they offend Muslims, yet has anybody done so for the Jews?
The reason we bend over backwards for Muslims and nobody else is because we fear what they will do if we don’t comply. Before it used to be called racist, now we literally fear them. As I said I’m no racist. But how about for a start we start treating everybody the same with no cop outs for ones faith.
Posted by: Mr Ison, England on 12:56pm Wed 30 Jan 08
Let me guess,Hollywood studios rejected your script as too hackneyed?
Let me guess,Hollywood studios rejected your script as too hackneyed?
Posted by: Ian, Cowley, Oxford on 2:14pm Wed 30 Jan 08
I live locally and I don't want some intrusive aspect of a backward religion/culture foisted upon me. If these people want to believe there is someone called Allah who will give them dozens of virgins in paradise if they kill infidels and blow themselves up in the process, that's OK with me - and it will be the first time with anyone sexually for some of them, judging by the sexist and sexually frustrated comments one hears and reads about, even if it is in their 'afterlife' - but I don't want their religious rantings intruding on my life. There is no God and no Allah either, and I don't want someone's hobby audibly intruding into my life.
I live locally and I don't want some intrusive aspect of a backward religion/culture foisted upon me. If these people want to believe there is someone called Allah who will give them dozens of virgins in paradise if they kill infidels and blow themselves up in the process, that's OK with me - and it will be the first time with anyone sexually for some of them, judging by the sexist and sexually frustrated comments one hears and reads about, even if it is in their 'afterlife' - but I don't want their religious rantings intruding on my life. There is no God and no Allah either, and I don't want someone's hobby audibly intruding into my life.
Posted by: alan page on 2:21pm Wed 30 Jan 08
Interestimg to hear the rector use the term "un-English" in regards to Islam.
Christianity of course was cooked up in the back of an olde countrie pubbe by Squire Trelawny whilst quaffing tankards full of ale wasn't it?
No exactly. As a friend of mine once said to some Jehovah's Witnesses:
"All well and good but do tell me why on earth I would some 2000 year old Jew clogging up my cardiovascular system?"
Interestimg to hear the rector use the term "un-English" in regards to Islam.
Christianity of course was cooked up in the back of an olde countrie pubbe by Squire Trelawny whilst quaffing tankards full of ale wasn't it?
No exactly. As a friend of mine once said to some Jehovah's Witnesses:
"All well and good but do tell me why on earth I would some 2000 year old Jew clogging up my cardiovascular system?"
Posted by: DanOxford, Oxford on 2:24pm Wed 30 Jan 08
Ian- exactly.
The link between sexually repressed young men and violent 'religious police' squads attacking young couples and women for wearing make-up or 'western' clothing in Muslim countries is explored in Christopher Hitchen's 'God is not Great'.
'Tolerance and understanding' my a*se.
Ian- exactly.
The link between sexually repressed young men and violent 'religious police' squads attacking young couples and women for wearing make-up or 'western' clothing in Muslim countries is explored in Christopher Hitchen's 'God is not Great'.
'Tolerance and understanding' my a*se.
Posted by: Richard James, Oxford on 2:27pm Wed 30 Jan 08
There should be no call to prayer. It is the responsibility of Muslims to know what time to attend mosque. It will start as once and then increase. By this means (and the monstrously oversized Islamic Centre on the Marston Road) our sense of living in a place called England (for which there is no substitute) will be eroded. Bells are different because they have been part of the English way of life for centuries. Despite what multiculturalism implies, there was no year zero circa the 1990s when all cultures in this country suddenly became equal and with a right to public space. There already was a diverse culture here before the dreaded 'm' word - English / British.
There should be no call to prayer. It is the responsibility of Muslims to know what time to attend mosque. It will start as once and then increase. By this means (and the monstrously oversized Islamic Centre on the Marston Road) our sense of living in a place called England (for which there is no substitute) will be eroded. Bells are different because they have been part of the English way of life for centuries. Despite what multiculturalism implies, there was no year zero circa the 1990s when all cultures in this country suddenly became equal and with a right to public space. There already was a diverse culture here before the dreaded 'm' word - English / British.
Posted by: alan page on 2:29pm Wed 30 Jan 08
[quote][bold]DanOxford[/bold] wrote:
Ian- exactly. The link between sexually repressed young men and violent 'religious police' squads attacking young couples and women for wearing make-up or 'western' clothing in Muslim countries is explored in Christopher Hitchen's 'God is not Great'. 'Tolerance and understanding' my a*se.[/quote] Does he also tackle celibacy in the Catholic priesthood and the number of children being abused as a possible result?
Somebody I knew from Uni got banged up for having sex with two 16 year old girls at the school he was teaching at.
He was king of the born again brigade when I knew him.
DanOxford wrote:
Ian- exactly. The link between sexually repressed young men and violent 'religious police' squads attacking young couples and women for wearing make-up or 'western' clothing in Muslim countries is explored in Christopher Hitchen's 'God is not Great'. 'Tolerance and understanding' my a*se.
Does he also tackle celibacy in the Catholic priesthood and the number of children being abused as a possible result?
Somebody I knew from Uni got banged up for having sex with two 16 year old girls at the school he was teaching at.
He was king of the born again brigade when I knew him.
Posted by: DanOxford, Oxford on 3:00pm Wed 30 Jan 08
Alan- yes, he does- read the book.
The peak of Catholic violence was about 400 years ago with the Inquisition.
Being a younger religion, and complicated by the assertation that the Koran is the 'unalterable' word of God, Islam has yet to undergo a similar transistion.
Paedophiles or any other form of violence or abuse in one religion has no relevance to wanting to curtail the spread of another set of harmful beliefs.
Islam is a backward set of beliefs spreading due to NuLabour's unchecked importaion of people from backward parts of the world, where religious and political repression have stifled education and intellectual freedom and development.
Alan- yes, he does- read the book.
The peak of Catholic violence was about 400 years ago with the Inquisition.
Being a younger religion, and complicated by the assertation that the Koran is the 'unalterable' word of God, Islam has yet to undergo a similar transistion.
Paedophiles or any other form of violence or abuse in one religion has no relevance to wanting to curtail the spread of another set of harmful beliefs.
Islam is a backward set of beliefs spreading due to NuLabour's unchecked importaion of people from backward parts of the world, where religious and political repression have stifled education and intellectual freedom and development.
Posted by: mart, hampstead on 3:11pm Wed 30 Jan 08
i wonder what would happen if we made a church and rang bells in a muslim contry.
i cant belive people still belive in god
i wonder what would happen if we made a church and rang bells in a muslim contry.
i cant belive people still belive in god
Posted by: Dave on 3:24pm Wed 30 Jan 08
Well its nice to hear someone from the CofE standing up for their faith for a change!
This is a Christian/Protestant country, we welcome all but when you are here respect our traditions as we would respect yours if we lived in a Muslim country.
Well its nice to hear someone from the CofE standing up for their faith for a change!
This is a Christian/Protestant country, we welcome all but when you are here respect our traditions as we would respect yours if we lived in a Muslim country.
Posted by: jess, oxford on 4:00pm Wed 30 Jan 08
I have the perfect solution.
Is there any reason why the mosque cant have a bell instead.
That way everyone will be happy
I have the perfect solution.
Is there any reason why the mosque cant have a bell instead.
That way everyone will be happy
Posted by: JJ on 4:01pm Wed 30 Jan 08
Church bells are rung in lots of muslin countries...well may be not Saudi Arabia. What planet are you on.
Church bells are rung in lots of muslin countries...well may be not Saudi Arabia. What planet are you on.
Posted by: Nick, East Oxford on 4:03pm Wed 30 Jan 08
I live locally and my own 2p worth of opinion is that I am against having my peace spoiled by the proposed call to wail something loudly in Arabic. I wanted to also mention that a couple of years ago, there was some grafitti spray painted on a poster on the Cowley Road which read: "Organised religion is voluntary intellectual suicide"
I live locally and my own 2p worth of opinion is that I am against having my peace spoiled by the proposed call to wail something loudly in Arabic. I wanted to also mention that a couple of years ago, there was some grafitti spray painted on a poster on the Cowley Road which read: "Organised religion is voluntary intellectual suicide"
Posted by: Mr Ison, Englad on 4:19pm Wed 30 Jan 08
Hmm,a sick priest?
Posted by: poppy, iffley road on 4:30pm Wed 30 Jan 08
I used to visit my son when he lived in Luton and the call to prayer there was a nightmare to live near. it would do your head in.
I used to visit my son when he lived in Luton and the call to prayer there was a nightmare to live near. it would do your head in.
Posted by: Dave, Headington on 4:31pm Wed 30 Jan 08
Kindly leave my bells alone.
They are reserved for Nurse Tess.
Thank you.
Kindly leave my bells alone.
They are reserved for Nurse Tess.
Thank you.
Posted by: poppy, iffley road on 5:04pm Wed 30 Jan 08
I asked the traffic wardens why they dont ticket people outside mosques who park on double yellow lines and street corners and on the pavement and they said because they have all got dissabled stickers. I complained to the police and they told me to write to the council. I wrote to them and they said they would not discuss any car with me that was not registered in my name. I cannot park out side my church on a Sunday as I would get a ticket. Please can anyone explain this to me.
I asked the traffic wardens why they dont ticket people outside mosques who park on double yellow lines and street corners and on the pavement and they said because they have all got dissabled stickers. I complained to the police and they told me to write to the council. I wrote to them and they said they would not discuss any car with me that was not registered in my name. I cannot park out side my church on a Sunday as I would get a ticket. Please can anyone explain this to me.
Posted by: Father Merrin, Bedside on 5:07pm Wed 30 Jan 08
...in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ!!! It is he who commands
you! He who flung you from the heights of Heaven to the depths of
hell!
...in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ!!! It is he who commands
you! He who flung you from the heights of Heaven to the depths of
hell!
Posted by: FreedomKnight, Essex, England on 5:18pm Wed 30 Jan 08
What about those who are not attached to any religion because they feel the standards of religions are dubious and the Doctrine without provenance.These may be the electoral majority yet they seem to be discriminated against and having religion forced upon them from all sides.In the UK the Govt. promotion of Religions( and diversion of taxpayers cash to this) seems to have become an oppression and part of the thought Police mentality.
What about those who are not attached to any religion because they feel the standards of religions are dubious and the Doctrine without provenance.These may be the electoral majority yet they seem to be discriminated against and having religion forced upon them from all sides.In the UK the Govt. promotion of Religions( and diversion of taxpayers cash to this) seems to have become an oppression and part of the thought Police mentality.
Posted by: Rich, USA on 6:20pm Wed 30 Jan 08
[quote][bold]Rob[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Rich[/bold] wrote: Well finally someone is saying what we all non Muslims agree on, Oxford does not need this call to prayer blasted out over loud speakers,They say it is just once a week, on Friday afternoon, maybe to start with, just like when all the Asians arrived from Uganda back in the 70\'s, that was just a few, then the floodgates opened, and now the country is over run, would be the same with the call to prayer, it would start off being just Friday afternoon, next will come Friday evening, then Friday and Monday, and before you can turn around it will be every day of the week, three times a day, and not just the one Mosque, they will all be wanting to do it, Britain does not need a call to prayer, if non Muslims can remember what time of day it is to pray with someone belting it out over loudspeakers, then the Muslims should be able to, seems they have remembered alright so far.[/quote] Rich USA, I\'m assuming the USA bit is an indication of your location. In which case, you seem to be utterly unqualified to speak on behalf of non Muslims in Oxford. I can only imagine your view of Britain is filtered through the websites (and comments pages) of the Oxford Mail, Daily Mail et al. Just for the record, I live in East Oxford, which is in no way \"over-run\" by Muslims and I can\'t see how a call to prayer will suddenly create a Muslim ghetto in the area. I\'m surprised that you think English culture so fragile that a call to prayer from a mosque near Cowley Road will destroy the very fabric of it. But then you live in the USA, a country obsessed with fear and paranoia.[/quote] Rob, Just to let you know, I was born in St Ebbes, spent my first 37 years living up in Oxford, worked at the old British Leyland factory,my wife used to live in East Oxford on Hurst St, back then you didn't see any shops with Asians names all over them, no Mosques, I go back home every two years, so I probably notice all the changes (for the worst ) more than you do, I hate to see what is happening to my home town, I lived in Marston before moving to the USA, so you can imagine the shock of seeing that out of place thing !! on the Marston Road, so you see Rob, I do know what I am talking about, you probably were not around, pre Uganda exodus days, So getting back to the main point, Oxford does not need Muslims having a call to prayer.
Rob wrote:
Rich wrote: Well finally someone is saying what we all non Muslims agree on, Oxford does not need this call to prayer blasted out over loud speakers,They say it is just once a week, on Friday afternoon, maybe to start with, just like when all the Asians arrived from Uganda back in the 70\'s, that was just a few, then the floodgates opened, and now the country is over run, would be the same with the call to prayer, it would start off being just Friday afternoon, next will come Friday evening, then Friday and Monday, and before you can turn around it will be every day of the week, three times a day, and not just the one Mosque, they will all be wanting to do it, Britain does not need a call to prayer, if non Muslims can remember what time of day it is to pray with someone belting it out over loudspeakers, then the Muslims should be able to, seems they have remembered alright so far.
Rich USA, I\'m assuming the USA bit is an indication of your location. In which case, you seem to be utterly unqualified to speak on behalf of non Muslims in Oxford. I can only imagine your view of Britain is filtered through the websites (and comments pages) of the Oxford Mail, Daily Mail et al. Just for the record, I live in East Oxford, which is in no way \"over-run\" by Muslims and I can\'t see how a call to prayer will suddenly create a Muslim ghetto in the area. I\'m surprised that you think English culture so fragile that a call to prayer from a mosque near Cowley Road will destroy the very fabric of it. But then you live in the USA, a country obsessed with fear and paranoia.
Rob, Just to let you know, I was born in St Ebbes, spent my first 37 years living up in Oxford, worked at the old British Leyland factory,my wife used to live in East Oxford on Hurst St, back then you didn't see any shops with Asians names all over them, no Mosques, I go back home every two years, so I probably notice all the changes (for the worst ) more than you do, I hate to see what is happening to my home town, I lived in Marston before moving to the USA, so you can imagine the shock of seeing that out of place thing !! on the Marston Road, so you see Rob, I do know what I am talking about, you probably were not around, pre Uganda exodus days, So getting back to the main point, Oxford does not need Muslims having a call to prayer.
Posted by: sid, bicester on 6:30pm Wed 30 Jan 08
This island earth,should we not all be tolerent of all faiths and creeds.peace brothers and sisters !!!!
This island earth,should we not all be tolerent of all faiths and creeds.peace brothers and sisters !!!!
Posted by: Dave, Headington on 6:59pm Wed 30 Jan 08
[quote][bold]sid[/bold] wrote:
This island earth,should we not all be tolerent of all faiths and creeds.peace brothers and sisters !!!![/quote] I agree wholeheartedly.
But, and it is a big But!
It has got to work both ways and in all directions.
I am an infidel christian who deserves to die because I do not worship the God that they want me to.
Tolerance is a virtue if used correctly.
If not; why bother?
sid wrote:
This island earth,should we not all be tolerent of all faiths and creeds.peace brothers and sisters !!!!
I agree wholeheartedly.
But, and it is a big But!
It has got to work both ways and in all directions.
I am an infidel christian who deserves to die because I do not worship the God that they want me to.
Tolerance is a virtue if used correctly.
If not; why bother?
Posted by: Terry Chandler, iffley road on 8:09pm Wed 30 Jan 08
[quote][bold]Stanley[/bold] wrote:
Same with the mosque on Stanley Road, cars double parked, parked on corners, covering driveways and on double yellows, but no wardens ever to be seen....[/quote] Not to mention parking peoples drive ways. brainwashed muppets.
Stanley wrote:
Same with the mosque on Stanley Road, cars double parked, parked on corners, covering driveways and on double yellows, but no wardens ever to be seen....
Not to mention parking peoples drive ways. brainwashed muppets.
Posted by: kerry.h, oxfordshire on 8:10pm Wed 30 Jan 08
i do not think calls to prayer should be allowed, muslims can do whatever but they should respect our country values if they have to come here and it's a really bad idea to even have mosques here because when they're holy book is translated it basically states that anyone who cannot be converted to muslim should be killed.So i think church bells are the safest option here.Plus i notice there are probably more muslims in oxford than christians or catholics now anyway.It probably doesn't matter whether we agree or not they'll make it happen.
i do not think calls to prayer should be allowed, muslims can do whatever but they should respect our country values if they have to come here and it's a really bad idea to even have mosques here because when they're holy book is translated it basically states that anyone who cannot be converted to muslim should be killed.So i think church bells are the safest option here.Plus i notice there are probably more muslims in oxford than christians or catholics now anyway.It probably doesn't matter whether we agree or not they'll make it happen.
Posted by: Mr Ison, England on 8:38pm Wed 30 Jan 08
There is a solution to feeling oppressed by politically correct racism.
Turn off your television and radio.
The whole rascism shenanigans has been a BBC canard for a long time an is irrelevent those not on their payroll.
There is a solution to feeling oppressed by politically correct racism.
Turn off your television and radio.
The whole rascism shenanigans has been a BBC canard for a long time an is irrelevent those not on their payroll.
Posted by: Terry Chandler on 8:40pm Wed 30 Jan 08
I did'nt know muslims were a race.
I did'nt know muslims were a race.
Posted by: Sam Kennedy, Oxford on 8:45pm Wed 30 Jan 08
St Aldates Church - "House Of Prayer For All Nations"
This is what greets you as you enter St Aldates Church.. This is what the church and Charlie believe in :)[bold]bold[/bold]
St Aldates Church - "House Of Prayer For All Nations"
This is what greets you as you enter St Aldates Church.. This is what the church and Charlie believe in :)
Posted by: sid, bicester on 8:56pm Wed 30 Jan 08
[quote][bold]Terry Chandler[/bold] wrote:
I did'nt know muslims were a race.[/quote] Moslems aren't either
Terry Chandler wrote:
I did'nt know muslims were a race.
Moslems aren't either
Posted by: Mr Ison, England on 9:09pm Wed 30 Jan 08
I have too much time, so i like to comment on every news story I can find, this is because of several reasons: 1-I have no life 2- I have no friends and 3- im up my own bum I can see out my mouth
I have too much time, so i like to comment on every news story I can find, this is because of several reasons: 1-I have no life 2- I have no friends and 3- im up my own bum I can see out my mouth
Posted by: Mr Ison, England on 9:13pm Wed 30 Jan 08
That's great,you are almost there.
That's great,you are almost there.
Posted by: DanOxford, Oxford on 10:25pm Wed 30 Jan 08
[quote][bold]Terry Chandler[/bold] wrote:
I did'nt know muslims were a race.[/quote] They aren't- unlike race, religion is something you choose (or- more likely- is chosen for you by your parents- remember the punishment for apostacy in Islam is death...)
Fortunately, Nanny Labour have thought of this, and their new thought crime laws on 'religious hate' will protect people who believe in intolerant, discriminatory, homophobic and misogynistic nonsense from rightly being treated with contempt, derision and hostility by people who resent their self- righteous God- bothering ways being foisted upon them- for example by a public call to prayer.
Terry Chandler wrote:
I did'nt know muslims were a race.
They aren't- unlike race, religion is something you choose (or- more likely- is chosen for you by your parents- remember the punishment for apostacy in Islam is death...)
Fortunately, Nanny Labour have thought of this, and their new thought crime laws on 'religious hate' will protect people who believe in intolerant, discriminatory, homophobic and misogynistic nonsense from rightly being treated with contempt, derision and hostility by people who resent their self- righteous God- bothering ways being foisted upon them- for example by a public call to prayer.
Posted by: poppy, iffley road on 10:41pm Wed 30 Jan 08
I do not blame anyone but oxford city council. English people are the most tolerant in the world.
I do not blame anyone but oxford city council. English people are the most tolerant in the world.
Posted by: Janet, oxford on 11:28pm Wed 30 Jan 08
[quote][bold]Jock[/bold] wrote:
Parking is a problem outsie St Clements Church on the busy Marston Road too. Shall we get them to close down?[/quote] Think you'll find the cars are parents dropping children off at school.
Jock wrote:
Parking is a problem outsie St Clements Church on the busy Marston Road too. Shall we get them to close down?
Think you'll find the cars are parents dropping children off at school.
Posted by: alan page on 12:18am Thu 31 Jan 08
[quote][bold]DanOxford[/bold] wrote:
Alan- yes, he does- read the book. The peak of Catholic violence was about 400 years ago with the Inquisition. Being a younger religion, and complicated by the assertation that the Koran is the 'unalterable' word of God, Islam has yet to undergo a similar transistion. Paedophiles or any other form of violence or abuse in one religion has no relevance to wanting to curtail the spread of another set of harmful beliefs. Islam is a backward set of beliefs spreading due to NuLabour's unchecked importaion of people from backward parts of the world, where religious and political repression have stifled education and intellectual freedom and development.[/quote] Well way back in the 12th century Islam was amongst the most advanced and civilised religions.
It certainly blew Christianity out of the water.
What passes for "Islam" today is a politicised version used to support a certain political power base.
Presumably you believe the issues in Northern Ireland were also Religious and not political.
I do believe that a belief in a trancendental force/being is a psychological necessity which religions all express. Feuerbach did a really good demolition job of Christianity illustrating the point.
I think believing in something beyond ourselves is healthier than mere materialist reductionism. It gives people an aim to head for, a goal to strive towards and takes them out of themselves.
Contemplating the infinity of the universe is my way of resolving this issue. It is both infinite and impersonal. It is only when one starts imposing or projecting one's own psyche, beliefs and prejudices onto the infinite that the trouble starts.
In other words, God may not exist, but the IDEA of such a being existing need not be a bad thing.
DanOxford wrote:
Alan- yes, he does- read the book. The peak of Catholic violence was about 400 years ago with the Inquisition. Being a younger religion, and complicated by the assertation that the Koran is the 'unalterable' word of God, Islam has yet to undergo a similar transistion. Paedophiles or any other form of violence or abuse in one religion has no relevance to wanting to curtail the spread of another set of harmful beliefs. Islam is a backward set of beliefs spreading due to NuLabour's unchecked importaion of people from backward parts of the world, where religious and political repression have stifled education and intellectual freedom and development.
Well way back in the 12th century Islam was amongst the most advanced and civilised religions.
It certainly blew Christianity out of the water.
What passes for "Islam" today is a politicised version used to support a certain political power base.
Presumably you believe the issues in Northern Ireland were also Religious and not political.
I do believe that a belief in a trancendental force/being is a psychological necessity which religions all express. Feuerbach did a really good demolition job of Christianity illustrating the point.
I think believing in something beyond ourselves is healthier than mere materialist reductionism. It gives people an aim to head for, a goal to strive towards and takes them out of themselves.
Contemplating the infinity of the universe is my way of resolving this issue. It is both infinite and impersonal. It is only when one starts imposing or projecting one's own psyche, beliefs and prejudices onto the infinite that the trouble starts.
In other words, God may not exist, but the IDEA of such a being existing need not be a bad thing.
Posted by: John, East Oxford on 12:49am Thu 31 Jan 08
Has any one else clicked on the video link on the top of the report to hear the ghastly racket they propose to broadcast over amplified speakers from a 100 foot High tower over Oxford, it really made me shudder I thought it would never end - and the actual full one would possibly go on even longer than that.
Also BBC Oxford seem to have totally blanked this story I haven't heard it discussed at all on BBC Oxford TV News or Radio.
Has any one else clicked on the video link on the top of the report to hear the ghastly racket they propose to broadcast over amplified speakers from a 100 foot High tower over Oxford, it really made me shudder I thought it would never end - and the actual full one would possibly go on even longer than that.
Also BBC Oxford seem to have totally blanked this story I haven't heard it discussed at all on BBC Oxford TV News or Radio.
Posted by: Rich, USA on 7:35am Thu 31 Jan 08
I expect the next thing the Muslims will complain about and get stopped, will be the singing of hymes from the top of Magdalen tower on May Morning, saying the sound and words offend them, and before you say it Rob, yes I have been there, 37 years living in Oxford.
I expect the next thing the Muslims will complain about and get stopped, will be the singing of hymes from the top of Magdalen tower on May Morning, saying the sound and words offend them, and before you say it Rob, yes I have been there, 37 years living in Oxford.
Posted by: David, Oxford on 7:54am Thu 31 Jan 08
Ison
U know nothing.
There is NO choir at St Aldate;s and the Rector is a decent bloke. I have met him a few times, and though I am not in his congregation he has always been friendly and polite.
Ison
U know nothing.
There is NO choir at St Aldate;s and the Rector is a decent bloke. I have met him a few times, and though I am not in his congregation he has always been friendly and polite.
Posted by: Mr Ison, England on 8:06am Thu 31 Jan 08
I think it's now fairly obvious who the rector represents.
I think it's now fairly obvious who the rector represents.
Posted by: shabba ranks, cowley on 9:51am Thu 31 Jan 08
[quote][bold]Ian[/bold] wrote:
I live locally and I don't want some intrusive aspect of a backward religion/culture foisted upon me. If these people want to believe there is someone called Allah who will give them dozens of virgins in paradise if they kill infidels and blow themselves up in the process, that's OK with me - and it will be the first time with anyone sexually for some of them, judging by the sexist and sexually frustrated comments one hears and reads about, even if it is in their 'afterlife' - but I don't want their religious rantings intruding on my life. There is no God and no Allah either, and I don't want someone's hobby audibly intruding into my life. [/quote] now if dat ent fkin racist den i dnt no wat is listin m8 in that particular community there a more muslim people so i think that this will be better for a community as a whole and your views on dat religion are copmletly wrng and i think u shud go and do sum revision cause ur knowledge on religion sucks
Ian wrote:
I live locally and I don't want some intrusive aspect of a backward religion/culture foisted upon me. If these people want to believe there is someone called Allah who will give them dozens of virgins in paradise if they kill infidels and blow themselves up in the process, that's OK with me - and it will be the first time with anyone sexually for some of them, judging by the sexist and sexually frustrated comments one hears and reads about, even if it is in their 'afterlife' - but I don't want their religious rantings intruding on my life. There is no God and no Allah either, and I don't want someone's hobby audibly intruding into my life.
now if dat ent fkin racist den i dnt no wat is listin m8 in that particular community there a more muslim people so i think that this will be better for a community as a whole and your views on dat religion are copmletly wrng and i think u shud go and do sum revision cause ur knowledge on religion sucks
Posted by: Ian, Cowley, Oxford on 10:39am Thu 31 Jan 08
[quote][bold]shabba ranks[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Ian[/bold] wrote:
I live locally and I don\'t want some intrusive aspect of a backward religion/culture foisted upon me. If these people want to believe there is someone called Allah who will give them dozens of virgins in paradise if they kill infidels and blow themselves up in the process, that\'s OK with me - and it will be the first time with anyone sexually for some of them, judging by the sexist and sexually frustrated comments one hears and reads about, even if it is in their \'afterlife\' - but I don\'t want their religious rantings intruding on my life. There is no God and no Allah either, and I don\'t want someone\'s hobby audibly intruding into my life. [/quote] now if dat ent fkin racist den i dnt no wat is listin m8 in that particular community there a more muslim people so i think that this will be better for a community as a whole and your views on dat religion are copmletly wrng and i think u shud go and do sum revision cause ur knowledge on religion sucks [/quote] Sorry, I don't speak 'Airplane' jive and I don't speak AOL mobile texting either. I live in the community in question and there is no integration of muslims and non-muslims beyond people sharing the same pavements to walk on or shops to buy things and that's it. You say "there a more muslim people..." - is that a coherent string of words or nonsensical even in the context of the other things you are saying or are you educationally subnormal?
Please refresh my memory: what race is having racist comments made about it? Or are you just another indoctrinated retard too quick on the "that's racist" accusation, politically-correct brigade?
Remember: there is no Allah and no God, so you can now spend the rest of your life with that weight off your backward mind and try and find your true purpose for being on this earth instead of the cop-out that is so-called religion. Let people pollute their own space and not others with their backward ways.
Learn to write properly or at least to punctuate your dopey thoughts or you risk appearing to be a hillbilly.
shabba ranks wrote:
Ian wrote:
I live locally and I don\'t want some intrusive aspect of a backward religion/culture foisted upon me. If these people want to believe there is someone called Allah who will give them dozens of virgins in paradise if they kill infidels and blow themselves up in the process, that\'s OK with me - and it will be the first time with anyone sexually for some of them, judging by the sexist and sexually frustrated comments one hears and reads about, even if it is in their \'afterlife\' - but I don\'t want their religious rantings intruding on my life. There is no God and no Allah either, and I don\'t want someone\'s hobby audibly intruding into my life.
now if dat ent fkin racist den i dnt no wat is listin m8 in that particular community there a more muslim people so i think that this will be better for a community as a whole and your views on dat religion are copmletly wrng and i think u shud go and do sum revision cause ur knowledge on religion sucks
Sorry, I don't speak 'Airplane' jive and I don't speak AOL mobile texting either. I live in the community in question and there is no integration of muslims and non-muslims beyond people sharing the same pavements to walk on or shops to buy things and that's it. You say "there a more muslim people..." - is that a coherent string of words or nonsensical even in the context of the other things you are saying or are you educationally subnormal?
Please refresh my memory: what race is having racist comments made about it? Or are you just another indoctrinated retard too quick on the "that's racist" accusation, politically-correct brigade?
Remember: there is no Allah and no God, so you can now spend the rest of your life with that weight off your backward mind and try and find your true purpose for being on this earth instead of the cop-out that is so-called religion. Let people pollute their own space and not others with their backward ways.
Learn to write properly or at least to punctuate your dopey thoughts or you risk appearing to be a hillbilly.
Posted by: Jo Duckles, London on 11:22am Thu 31 Jan 08
Well said Charlie
Posted by: alan page on 12:21pm Thu 31 Jan 08
[quote][bold]alan page[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]DanOxford[/bold] wrote: Alan- yes, he does- read the book. The peak of Catholic violence was about 400 years ago with the Inquisition. Being a younger religion, and complicated by the assertation that the Koran is the 'unalterable' word of God, Islam has yet to undergo a similar transistion. Paedophiles or any other form of violence or abuse in one religion has no relevance to wanting to curtail the spread of another set of harmful beliefs. Islam is a backward set of beliefs spreading due to NuLabour's unchecked importaion of people from backward parts of the world, where religious and political repression have stifled education and intellectual freedom and development.[/quote] Well way back in the 12th century Islam was amongst the most advanced and civilised religions. It certainly blew Christianity out of the water. What passes for "Islam" today is a politicised version used to support a certain political power base. Presumably you believe the issues in Northern Ireland were also Religious and not political. I do believe that a belief in a trancendental force/being is a psychological necessity which religions all express. Feuerbach did a really good demolition job of Christianity illustrating the point. I think believing in something beyond ourselves is healthier than mere materialist reductionism. It gives people an aim to head for, a goal to strive towards and takes them out of themselves. Contemplating the infinity of the universe is my way of resolving this issue. It is both infinite and impersonal. It is only when one starts imposing or projecting one's own psyche, beliefs and prejudices onto the infinite that the trouble starts. In other words, God may not exist, but the IDEA of such a being existing need not be a bad thing. [/quote] In fact, following on from this, In his "Philosphy of Politics" Rosmini argues that Society has as its ultimate real end the cooperative attempt to ensure that each of its members is contented. This involves nurturing a transcendent,interna
l,speculative mentality devoted to reflection on things beyond the purely material.
He argues that those who's man concern is with increase of external material wealth have only a lesser,self oriented good in mind which undermines society in that it renders and excludes those who favour the higher aims in life.Offering plastic ducks in place of enlightenment.(My example).
For those transient philosophers who see materialism as the major progressive force will come the shock of discovering that after they have gone the first REALLY progressive movement would be to denounce them as idiots.
Rosmini has, in my opinion, been underated as a thinker. I do not hare his faith but his insights are always thought provoking and stimulating.
Unlike the overhyped, highly fashionable on sale/promotion at WH Smiths Richard Dawkins who seems to be flavour of the month with the middleclasses at the moment.
alan page wrote:
DanOxford wrote: Alan- yes, he does- read the book. The peak of Catholic violence was about 400 years ago with the Inquisition. Being a younger religion, and complicated by the assertation that the Koran is the 'unalterable' word of God, Islam has yet to undergo a similar transistion. Paedophiles or any other form of violence or abuse in one religion has no relevance to wanting to curtail the spread of another set of harmful beliefs. Islam is a backward set of beliefs spreading due to NuLabour's unchecked importaion of people from backward parts of the world, where religious and political repression have stifled education and intellectual freedom and development.
Well way back in the 12th century Islam was amongst the most advanced and civilised religions. It certainly blew Christianity out of the water. What passes for "Islam" today is a politicised version used to support a certain political power base. Presumably you believe the issues in Northern Ireland were also Religious and not political. I do believe that a belief in a trancendental force/being is a psychological necessity which religions all express. Feuerbach did a really good demolition job of Christianity illustrating the point. I think believing in something beyond ourselves is healthier than mere materialist reductionism. It gives people an aim to head for, a goal to strive towards and takes them out of themselves. Contemplating the infinity of the universe is my way of resolving this issue. It is both infinite and impersonal. It is only when one starts imposing or projecting one's own psyche, beliefs and prejudices onto the infinite that the trouble starts. In other words, God may not exist, but the IDEA of such a being existing need not be a bad thing.
In fact, following on from this, In his "Philosphy of Politics" Rosmini argues that Society has as its ultimate real end the cooperative attempt to ensure that each of its members is contented. This involves nurturing a transcendent,interna
l,speculative mentality devoted to reflection on things beyond the purely material.
He argues that those who's man concern is with increase of external material wealth have only a lesser,self oriented good in mind which undermines society in that it renders and excludes those who favour the higher aims in life.Offering plastic ducks in place of enlightenment.(My example).
For those transient philosophers who see materialism as the major progressive force will come the shock of discovering that after they have gone the first REALLY progressive movement would be to denounce them as idiots.
Rosmini has, in my opinion, been underated as a thinker. I do not hare his faith but his insights are always thought provoking and stimulating.
Unlike the overhyped, highly fashionable on sale/promotion at WH Smiths Richard Dawkins who seems to be flavour of the month with the middleclasses at the moment.
Posted by: poppy, iffley road on 12:21pm Thu 31 Jan 08
For years Irish people could not get permission to build an Irish club in Oxford how did all the mosques get sites ??
For years Irish people could not get permission to build an Irish club in Oxford how did all the mosques get sites ??
Posted by: alan page on 12:27pm Thu 31 Jan 08
P.S.The idea that an ideal atheist state would be desirable, moral and fairer is blown to kingdom come by Marxist regimes around the world.
They were all allegedly based on "scientific determinism", "rationality", etc.
All they got was a highly oppressive system and mass genocide out of it. But hey, at least they werent believing in some deity, eh? Dawkins would be proud!!
P.S.The idea that an ideal atheist state would be desirable, moral and fairer is blown to kingdom come by Marxist regimes around the world.
They were all allegedly based on "scientific determinism", "rationality", etc.
All they got was a highly oppressive system and mass genocide out of it. But hey, at least they werent believing in some deity, eh? Dawkins would be proud!!
Posted by: Mr Ison, England on 12:39pm Thu 31 Jan 08
That Dawkins would make a fine subject for racking.
That Dawkins would make a fine subject for racking.
Posted by: sid, bicester on 6:38pm Thu 31 Jan 08
[quote][bold]Ian[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]shabba ranks[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]Ian[/bold] wrote: I live locally and I don\'t want some intrusive aspect of a backward religion/culture foisted upon me. If these people want to believe there is someone called Allah who will give them dozens of virgins in paradise if they kill infidels and blow themselves up in the process, that\'s OK with me - and it will be the first time with anyone sexually for some of them, judging by the sexist and sexually frustrated comments one hears and reads about, even if it is in their \'afterlife\' - but I don\'t want their religious rantings intruding on my life. There is no God and no Allah either, and I don\'t want someone\'s hobby audibly intruding into my life. [/quote] now if dat ent fkin racist den i dnt no wat is listin m8 in that particular community there a more muslim people so i think that this will be better for a community as a whole and your views on dat religion are copmletly wrng and i think u shud go and do sum revision cause ur knowledge on religion sucks [/quote] Sorry, I don't speak 'Airplane' jive and I don't speak AOL mobile texting either. I live in the community in question and there is no integration of muslims and non-muslims beyond people sharing the same pavements to walk on or shops to buy things and that's it. You say "there a more muslim people..." - is that a coherent string of words or nonsensical even in the context of the other things you are saying or are you educationally subnormal? Please refresh my memory: what race is having racist comments made about it? Or are you just another indoctrinated retard too quick on the "that's racist" accusation, politically-correct brigade? Remember: there is no Allah and no God, so you can now spend the rest of your life with that weight off your backward mind and try and find your true purpose for being on this earth instead of the cop-out that is so-called religion. Let people pollute their own space and not others with their backward ways. Learn to write properly or at least to punctuate your dopey thoughts or you risk appearing to be a hillbilly.[/quote] .....and what is wrong with hillbillys??
Ian wrote:
shabba ranks wrote: Ian wrote: I live locally and I don\'t want some intrusive aspect of a backward religion/culture foisted upon me. If these people want to believe there is someone called Allah who will give them dozens of virgins in paradise if they kill infidels and blow themselves up in the process, that\'s OK with me - and it will be the first time with anyone sexually for some of them, judging by the sexist and sexually frustrated comments one hears and reads about, even if it is in their \'afterlife\' - but I don\'t want their religious rantings intruding on my life. There is no God and no Allah either, and I don\'t want someone\'s hobby audibly intruding into my life.
now if dat ent fkin racist den i dnt no wat is listin m8 in that particular community there a more muslim people so i think that this will be better for a community as a whole and your views on dat religion are copmletly wrng and i think u shud go and do sum revision cause ur knowledge on religion sucks
Sorry, I don't speak 'Airplane' jive and I don't speak AOL mobile texting either. I live in the community in question and there is no integration of muslims and non-muslims beyond people sharing the same pavements to walk on or shops to buy things and that's it. You say "there a more muslim people..." - is that a coherent string of words or nonsensical even in the context of the other things you are saying or are you educationally subnormal? Please refresh my memory: what race is having racist comments made about it? Or are you just another indoctrinated retard too quick on the "that's racist" accusation, politically-correct brigade? Remember: there is no Allah and no God, so you can now spend the rest of your life with that weight off your backward mind and try and find your true purpose for being on this earth instead of the cop-out that is so-called religion. Let people pollute their own space and not others with their backward ways. Learn to write properly or at least to punctuate your dopey thoughts or you risk appearing to be a hillbilly.
.....and what is wrong with hillbillys??
Posted by: sid, bicester on 6:44pm Thu 31 Jan 08
[quote][bold]sid[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Ian[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]shabba ranks[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]Ian[/bold] wrote: I live locally and I don\'t want some intrusive aspect of a backward religion/culture foisted upon me. If these people want to believe there is someone called Allah who will give them dozens of virgins in paradise if they kill infidels and blow themselves up in the process, that\'s OK with me - and it will be the first time with anyone sexually for some of them, judging by the sexist and sexually frustrated comments one hears and reads about, even if it is in their \'afterlife\' - but I don\'t want their religious rantings intruding on my life. There is no God and no Allah either, and I don\'t want someone\'s hobby audibly intruding into my life. [/quote] now if dat ent fkin racist den i dnt no wat is listin m8 in that particular community there a more muslim people so i think that this will be better for a community as a whole and your views on dat religion are copmletly wrng and i think u shud go and do sum revision cause ur knowledge on religion sucks [/quote] Sorry, I don't speak 'Airplane' jive and I don't speak AOL mobile texting either. I live in the community in question and there is no integration of muslims and non-muslims beyond people sharing the same pavements to walk on or shops to buy things and that's it. You say "there a more muslim people..." - is that a coherent string of words or nonsensical even in the context of the other things you are saying or are you educationally subnormal? Please refresh my memory: what race is having racist comments made about it? Or are you just another indoctrinated retard too quick on the "that's racist" accusation, politically-correct brigade? Remember: there is no Allah and no God, so you can now spend the rest of your life with that weight off your backward mind and try and find your true purpose for being on this earth instead of the cop-out that is so-called religion. Let people pollute their own space and not others with their backward ways. Learn to write properly or at least to punctuate your dopey thoughts or you risk appearing to be a hillbilly.[/quote] .....and what is wrong with hillbillys?? [/quote] oh I forgot,may God bless you and Allah keep you my Son.
sid wrote:
Ian wrote: shabba ranks wrote: Ian wrote: I live locally and I don\'t want some intrusive aspect of a backward religion/culture foisted upon me. If these people want to believe there is someone called Allah who will give them dozens of virgins in paradise if they kill infidels and blow themselves up in the process, that\'s OK with me - and it will be the first time with anyone sexually for some of them, judging by the sexist and sexually frustrated comments one hears and reads about, even if it is in their \'afterlife\' - but I don\'t want their religious rantings intruding on my life. There is no God and no Allah either, and I don\'t want someone\'s hobby audibly intruding into my life.
now if dat ent fkin racist den i dnt no wat is listin m8 in that particular community there a more muslim people so i think that this will be better for a community as a whole and your views on dat religion are copmletly wrng and i think u shud go and do sum revision cause ur knowledge on religion sucks
Sorry, I don't speak 'Airplane' jive and I don't speak AOL mobile texting either. I live in the community in question and there is no integration of muslims and non-muslims beyond people sharing the same pavements to walk on or shops to buy things and that's it. You say "there a more muslim people..." - is that a coherent string of words or nonsensical even in the context of the other things you are saying or are you educationally subnormal? Please refresh my memory: what race is having racist comments made about it? Or are you just another indoctrinated retard too quick on the "that's racist" accusation, politically-correct brigade? Remember: there is no Allah and no God, so you can now spend the rest of your life with that weight off your backward mind and try and find your true purpose for being on this earth instead of the cop-out that is so-called religion. Let people pollute their own space and not others with their backward ways. Learn to write properly or at least to punctuate your dopey thoughts or you risk appearing to be a hillbilly.
.....and what is wrong with hillbillys??
oh I forgot,may God bless you and Allah keep you my Son.
Posted by: Dhimmied, UK on 10:19am Fri 1 Feb 08
[quote][bold]DanOxford[/bold] wrote:
Alan- yes, he does- read the book. The peak of Catholic violence was about 400 years ago with the Inquisition. Being a younger religion, and complicated by the assertation that the Koran is the 'unalterable' word of God, Islam has yet to undergo a similar transistion. Paedophiles or any other form of violence or abuse in one religion has no relevance to wanting to curtail the spread of another set of harmful beliefs. Islam is a backward set of beliefs spreading due to NuLabour's unchecked importaion of people from backward parts of the world, where religious and political repression have stifled education and intellectual freedom and development.[/quote] So, who did you vote for at the last election?
DanOxford wrote:
Alan- yes, he does- read the book. The peak of Catholic violence was about 400 years ago with the Inquisition. Being a younger religion, and complicated by the assertation that the Koran is the 'unalterable' word of God, Islam has yet to undergo a similar transistion. Paedophiles or any other form of violence or abuse in one religion has no relevance to wanting to curtail the spread of another set of harmful beliefs. Islam is a backward set of beliefs spreading due to NuLabour's unchecked importaion of people from backward parts of the world, where religious and political repression have stifled education and intellectual freedom and development.
So, who did you vote for at the last election?
Posted by: Dhimmied, UK on 10:29am Fri 1 Feb 08
[quote][bold]poppy[/bold] wrote:
I used to visit my son when he lived in Luton and the call to prayer there was a nightmare to live near. it would do your head in.[/quote] So, Luton today, Oxford tomorrow, Cambridge next? Edinburough soon? your town/village later? The Muslim population of Europe is predicted to Triple in the next 17 years, -unless the Government change the rules, -but do you see any PC EUrophile Gov. doing that? -NO!
This Country is allowing itself to be Totally Islamised, -but most people are asleep, and can't imagine that that could happen in their neck of the woods! Sleep well Dhimmi Kaffir's!
poppy wrote:
I used to visit my son when he lived in Luton and the call to prayer there was a nightmare to live near. it would do your head in.
So, Luton today, Oxford tomorrow, Cambridge next? Edinburough soon? your town/village later? The Muslim population of Europe is predicted to Triple in the next 17 years, -unless the Government change the rules, -but do you see any PC EUrophile Gov. doing that? -NO!
This Country is allowing itself to be Totally Islamised, -but most people are asleep, and can't imagine that that could happen in their neck of the woods! Sleep well Dhimmi Kaffir's!
Posted by: Dhimmied, UK on 10:42am Fri 1 Feb 08
[quote][bold]poppy[/bold] wrote:
For years Irish people could not get permission to build an Irish club in Oxford how did all the mosques get sites ??[/quote] Because there are no Oil Wells in Ireland!
poppy wrote:
For years Irish people could not get permission to build an Irish club in Oxford how did all the mosques get sites ??
Because there are no Oil Wells in Ireland!
Posted by: Andy, Oxford on 11:08am Fri 1 Feb 08
[quote][bold]Dhimmied[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]poppy[/bold] wrote:
For years Irish people could not get permission to build an Irish club in Oxford how did all the mosques get sites ??[/quote] Because there are no Oil Wells in Ireland![/quote] And also because people are scared of upsetting those who would make a death sentence on book author, Salman Rushdie.
Dhimmied wrote:
poppy wrote:
For years Irish people could not get permission to build an Irish club in Oxford how did all the mosques get sites ??
Because there are no Oil Wells in Ireland!
And also because people are scared of upsetting those who would make a death sentence on book author, Salman Rushdie.
Posted by: Dhimmied, UK on 11:09am Fri 1 Feb 08
[quote][bold]Rob[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Rich[/bold] wrote: Well finally someone is saying what we all non Muslims agree on, Oxford does not need this call to prayer blasted out over loud speakers,They say it is just once a week, on Friday afternoon, maybe to start with, just like when all the Asians arrived from Uganda back in the 70's, that was just a few, then the floodgates opened, and now the country is over run, would be the same with the call to prayer, it would start off being just Friday afternoon, next will come Friday evening, then Friday and Monday, and before you can turn around it will be every day of the week, three times a day, and not just the one Mosque, they will all be wanting to do it, Britain does not need a call to prayer, if non Muslims can remember what time of day it is to pray with someone belting it out over loudspeakers, then the Muslims should be able to, seems they have remembered alright so far.[/quote] Rich USA, I'm assuming the USA bit is an indication of your location. In which case, you
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