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Row over fully-dressed woman in sauna
 |
| Ian Caldwell outside the sports centre |
A health club has been criticised for allowing a Muslim woman to go for a swim and sauna while wearing traditional head dress and robe.
The woman was admitted to David Lloyd Leisure, in Garsington Road, Cowley, on Sunday in contravention of the company's own rules on dress.
The decision has been condemned by club member Ian Caldwell, who was in the sauna when the woman walked in and by Muslim community leader Taj Hargey, who said it was "political correctness gone crazy."
Mr Caldwell said: "The woman walked in wearing her head dress and robe down to the floor and I said 'do you think it's appropriate to wear all that gear in the sauna'.
"There were other women in there who felt threatened because they were wearing swimsuits while she was fully dressed.
"She then left and got into the swimming pool. I asked the manager why she was allowed to break the rules and he said they had to observe her religious customs.
"They've got a dress code but they are effectively making exemptions for religious dress. I don't think they should put religious custom over and above health and hygiene. It is customary in this country to wear swim gear in the swimming pool."
Liam Macgilp, general manager at David Lloyd Oxford, said: "Whereas we respect the religious beliefs and customs of all members, the health, hygiene and safety of members is always the first priority.
"The rules are that all members in the sauna or the wet areas of the club should wear swimwear that is less voluminous for the health, safety and hygiene of all its staff and members."
He would not comment on the incident on Sunday which he said he did not witness but said he understood Mr Caldwell's description of the sequence of events to be correct.
Mr Hargey, chairman of muslim group MECO, said: "If this woman wants to wear this garb it's not Islamic custom, it's a cultural tradition which has nothing to do with faith.
"This is political correctness gone crazy and there should be one set of rules and regulations for everyone, regardless of their culture or religion.
"Perhaps she should consider wearing a new Islamic swimsuit that has been designed called the Burqini which covers all the necessary parts.
"That would be one way around it if she wants to preserve her modesty."
Muslim community leader Muhammed Khan said: "Muslim women who choose to use a facility do so through their own free will and hence need to uphold both personal safety, relevant Islamic injunctions pertaining to the matter, as well as the health and safety of other users.
"It seems Muslim women are being permitted to wear clothing, not a swimsuit, that is concealing yet non-voluminous. It would be advisable to clarify what types of clothing would be classed as 'less voluminous'."
Swimsuit was worn at club
We thank all those who have posted on this
topic. For your information, the following has appeared in the Oxford Mail today (April 23).
We are also making contact with Ms Omar with a view to a follow-up article.
On March 13, we reported claims that a woman went for a sauna and a swim at Oxford's David Lloyd health club wearing traditional clothing of the sort worn by Muslims.
The story was based on an eyewitness account and was critical of both the unidentified woman involved and the health club. The club confirmed the sequence of events was correct.
In fact the woman at the centre of the story, Manal Omar, wore a five-piece swimsuit specifically designed to allow Muslim women to bathe while preserving their modesty.
Although we published our story in good faith, based on what we knew at the time, we are happy to clarify the situation.
Ms Omar has declined to comment further.
8:25am Tuesday 13th March 2007
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CommentPosted by: Nic, Oxford on 8:36am Tue 13 Mar 07
What is the World coming to........
What is the World coming to........
Posted by: David.John.Bourton., oxford on 9:55am Tue 13 Mar 07
I would say she is taking the Michael for want of a better word if you get my drift
I would say she is taking the Michael for want of a better word if you get my drift
Posted by: Adam D on 10:02am Tue 13 Mar 07
Political Correctness gone mad. Either follow the countrys rules, or else theres the door. Religious beliefs my backside. Would they allow a naturist to swim nude??
Political Correctness gone mad. Either follow the countrys rules, or else theres the door. Religious beliefs my backside. Would they allow a naturist to swim nude??
Posted by: JK, Oxford on 10:24am Tue 13 Mar 07
Looking from a health, hygiene and safety point of view - swimming wearing a voluminous floor length dress is actually dangerous as it would be easy for it to become wrapped around legs, come up over the head etc. - not to mention the volume of water that would be carried into the changing areas. Taking a sauna in a voluminous floor length dress must be dangerous from the over-heating aspect - how could you see if someone was actually becoming overheated? It would be more appropriate to establish women/men only sessions to accommodate muslim women and others who might prefer single sex sessions. This is political correctness becoming incorrect!
Looking from a health, hygiene and safety point of view - swimming wearing a voluminous floor length dress is actually dangerous as it would be easy for it to become wrapped around legs, come up over the head etc. - not to mention the volume of water that would be carried into the changing areas. Taking a sauna in a voluminous floor length dress must be dangerous from the over-heating aspect - how could you see if someone was actually becoming overheated? It would be more appropriate to establish women/men only sessions to accommodate muslim women and others who might prefer single sex sessions. This is political correctness becoming incorrect!
Posted by: perieskhan, oxford on 11:14am Tue 13 Mar 07
Are people in oxford going mad. One woman from a population of 6000 muslims behaved in a manner thats not accepted by any member of community or religion but for people to react and make silly comments is showing the arrogance of our fellow british people. Grow up you silly woman dont use the gym if you dont want to show your bare skin & the people making stupid comments
Are people in oxford going mad. One woman from a population of 6000 muslims behaved in a manner thats not accepted by any member of community or religion but for people to react and make silly comments is showing the arrogance of our fellow british people. Grow up you silly woman dont use the gym if you dont want to show your bare skin & the people making stupid comments
Posted by: anon, oxford on 11:21am Tue 13 Mar 07
I totally agree with you perieskhan. I cannot believe sometimes on these comments sections how narrow-minded and xenophobic people can be.
Andrew Jackson what do you mean in your comment?? Inciting hatred springs to mind....
Yes, this woman did do something a bit stupid, dangerous and against the rules, but we should be having a go at David Lloyd for letting her, despite it being clearly against the fitness club rules regardless of her religion, and agree that she was a bit stupid as she could choose not to go if she didn't want to wear a swimsuit.
We should not, ever, be calling for 'England to be free from this' if you meant what I have taken you to mean Andrew....
I totally agree with you perieskhan. I cannot believe sometimes on these comments sections how narrow-minded and xenophobic people can be.
Andrew Jackson what do you mean in your comment?? Inciting hatred springs to mind....
Yes, this woman did do something a bit stupid, dangerous and against the rules, but we should be having a go at David Lloyd for letting her, despite it being clearly against the fitness club rules regardless of her religion, and agree that she was a bit stupid as she could choose not to go if she didn't want to wear a swimsuit.
We should not, ever, be calling for 'England to be free from this' if you meant what I have taken you to mean Andrew....
Posted by: Oldster on 12:15pm Tue 13 Mar 07
So it will be all right if British women go to this person's country and dress and behave in a western way, provided it's not a health & safety issue? That's fine then.
The British are expected to tolerate the immigrants' customs (some of which are illegal, e.g. they often don't observe the Sex Discrimination Act and force their children's marriages). Yet it is taken for granted that the immigrants do not have to reciprocate this tolerance in any way, either in their own country or here.
(My father was an immigrant, but felt privileged to live here, and would have considered it rude not to observe this country's ways.)
So it will be all right if British women go to this person's country and dress and behave in a western way, provided it's not a health & safety issue? That's fine then.
The British are expected to tolerate the immigrants' customs (some of which are illegal, e.g. they often don't observe the Sex Discrimination Act and force their children's marriages). Yet it is taken for granted that the immigrants do not have to reciprocate this tolerance in any way, either in their own country or here.
(My father was an immigrant, but felt privileged to live here, and would have considered it rude not to observe this country's ways.)
Posted by: Mr, Town on 12:20pm Tue 13 Mar 07
This is ridculas, a man who clearly is making a stupid point. I saw this woman swimming at DL and it was not dangerous or offensive. She wore a full-length suit, like an aqua blade they wear in the Olympics and a tabard type thing over it with a short hem bit that went into a skirt. It was so short that it would not be dangerous. I can't see how it is any more unhygienic than anything else. Her hair was covered for one. Some people wear underwear in the pool! This man obviously has some other motive.
This is ridculas, a man who clearly is making a stupid point. I saw this woman swimming at DL and it was not dangerous or offensive. She wore a full-length suit, like an aqua blade they wear in the Olympics and a tabard type thing over it with a short hem bit that went into a skirt. It was so short that it would not be dangerous. I can't see how it is any more unhygienic than anything else. Her hair was covered for one. Some people wear underwear in the pool! This man obviously has some other motive.
Posted by: K on 12:29pm Tue 13 Mar 07
I have always subscribed to when in another country respect their ways dress wise and religous wise, why then can't those who choose to live here subscribe to the same thing?
instead of trying to make this country in what they Chose to leave behind! simple thing is respect but these days very few have it any more.
I have always subscribed to when in another country respect their ways dress wise and religous wise, why then can't those who choose to live here subscribe to the same thing?
instead of trying to make this country in what they Chose to leave behind! simple thing is respect but these days very few have it any more.
Posted by: av, oxford on 12:31pm Tue 13 Mar 07
why on earth did the swimming costume clad ladies feel threatend ? the lady who wore the body costume has the same rights as you to be there. Crikey have you nothing better to do than complain. I sat in a sauna a while ago and a very very large person came in, there where comments when he left what is ok these days no one fits in anywhere anymore...
why on earth did the swimming costume clad ladies feel threatend ? the lady who wore the body costume has the same rights as you to be there. Crikey have you nothing better to do than complain. I sat in a sauna a while ago and a very very large person came in, there where comments when he left what is ok these days no one fits in anywhere anymore...
Posted by: Amanda, Oxford on 12:46pm Tue 13 Mar 07
Why is it that some of the comments above seem to assume that just because this lady is Muslim, she is not British? Strange. So long as nothing illegal is going on, we should all respect the beliefs of others, even if different to our own.
Why is it that some of the comments above seem to assume that just because this lady is Muslim, she is not British? Strange. So long as nothing illegal is going on, we should all respect the beliefs of others, even if different to our own.
Posted by: mitchshrader, tasmania on 12:58pm Tue 13 Mar 07
You've given up knives and guns, the rights to self defense, and your culture.
Pity, that. Gutless, was it? No nerve, giving it back to the abo's, what?
Not surprised, no moral fiber. Be glad when they just give over, it's painful to watch.
The lack of capital punishment, guns, and individual pride has dissolved the British spirit. No lumpy bits left, you can flush now.
You've given up knives and guns, the rights to self defense, and your culture.
Pity, that. Gutless, was it? No nerve, giving it back to the abo's, what?
Not surprised, no moral fiber. Be glad when they just give over, it's painful to watch.
The lack of capital punishment, guns, and individual pride has dissolved the British spirit. No lumpy bits left, you can flush now.
Posted by: Jenny on 12:59pm Tue 13 Mar 07
I am ashamed to be british. Just look at yourselves and the ridiculous comments you are coming out with. Our own obsession with political correctness has caused this. We are one nation, we should have one set of rules and that would stop this segration. I am proud that our country accepts people from all heritages and I am utterly ashamed at the comments some of you are making. Do you feel the same about the people of french and german origin living in this country?
I am ashamed to be british. Just look at yourselves and the ridiculous comments you are coming out with. Our own obsession with political correctness has caused this. We are one nation, we should have one set of rules and that would stop this segration. I am proud that our country accepts people from all heritages and I am utterly ashamed at the comments some of you are making. Do you feel the same about the people of french and german origin living in this country?
Posted by: Carlos A, Cowley on 2:55pm Tue 13 Mar 07
Rules are rules, if you dont like them dont go in there? If she was wearing the special swim wear fair enough no problem. But if she was wearing the clothes described in the article its not acceptable. I cant wear certain items of clothing everywhere and i wear some of it for safety. Eg motorcycle leathers, helmets, hoodies, beanies and baseball caps.
Jenny i am proud to be british, not ashamed of myself at all. We do have one set of rules its just people wont follow them as they dont fit in with thier life style, you never walk into somewhere to see a board with rules for english, rules for asians, rules for europeans etc!
Rules are rules, if you dont like them dont go in there? If she was wearing the special swim wear fair enough no problem. But if she was wearing the clothes described in the article its not acceptable. I cant wear certain items of clothing everywhere and i wear some of it for safety. Eg motorcycle leathers, helmets, hoodies, beanies and baseball caps.
Jenny i am proud to be british, not ashamed of myself at all. We do have one set of rules its just people wont follow them as they dont fit in with thier life style, you never walk into somewhere to see a board with rules for english, rules for asians, rules for europeans etc!
Posted by: kelbun, Chipping Norton on 4:19pm Tue 13 Mar 07
I would like to point out to Carlos that there are seperate rules. I cannot go into a bank wearing my crash helmet covering my face or any other garment, yet Muslim women can wear their veils etc.
I would like to point out to Carlos that there are seperate rules. I cannot go into a bank wearing my crash helmet covering my face or any other garment, yet Muslim women can wear their veils etc.
Posted by: Chris, Didcot on 5:09pm Tue 13 Mar 07
What - you are supposed to wear swimwear in a sauna in Britain? That's disgusting! _Any_ piece of clothing in a sauna is too much. See Scandinavia!
What - you are supposed to wear swimwear in a sauna in Britain? That's disgusting! _Any_ piece of clothing in a sauna is too much. See Scandinavia!
Posted by: Sienna, Headington,oxford on 6:39pm Tue 13 Mar 07
that is what i dislike about other cultures in this country-and no im not being racist before anyone jumps to that assumption! If i went to an asian country i would respect their culture and abide by their rules,This country is slowly changing to adapt to include their way's,My daughter is now singing Ba ba blue sheep! How ridiculous! We are alway's accused of being racist,when all we are asking for is our law and rules to be respected too,What gave this woman the right to do what she wanted? Also,what about our traditional christmas-That has changed,were being told that we cant have decorations up in headington incase it offended the indian's! Father christmas i noticed was white this year in the clarendon centre-What is going on,its like walking on eggshells.
that is what i dislike about other cultures in this country-and no im not being racist before anyone jumps to that assumption! If i went to an asian country i would respect their culture and abide by their rules,This country is slowly changing to adapt to include their way's,My daughter is now singing Ba ba blue sheep! How ridiculous! We are alway's accused of being racist,when all we are asking for is our law and rules to be respected too,What gave this woman the right to do what she wanted? Also,what about our traditional christmas-That has changed,were being told that we cant have decorations up in headington incase it offended the indian's! Father christmas i noticed was white this year in the clarendon centre-What is going on,its like walking on eggshells.
Posted by: Paul, Witney on 7:00pm Tue 13 Mar 07
Its pathetic!
If i went to a swimming pool in a country mainly populated by Muslims i would not be allowed to go in there with just my pink speedos on so why should we treat them differently.
The trouble is whenever people like myself get heated over issues like this it gets branded as rascist or being a bigot.
Thats not the case at all. It;s just that surely a multi cultural society (which is supposed to be what we are nowadays) should consist of everyone abiding by the same laws. That my friends is not what some Muslims and people of other faiths abide to.
Also fed up with goody two shoes sticking up for them regardless!
Its pathetic!
If i went to a swimming pool in a country mainly populated by Muslims i would not be allowed to go in there with just my pink speedos on so why should we treat them differently.
The trouble is whenever people like myself get heated over issues like this it gets branded as rascist or being a bigot.
Thats not the case at all. It;s just that surely a multi cultural society (which is supposed to be what we are nowadays) should consist of everyone abiding by the same laws. That my friends is not what some Muslims and people of other faiths abide to.
Also fed up with goody two shoes sticking up for them regardless!
Posted by: Sienna, headington,oxford on 7:08pm Tue 13 Mar 07
Paul-I think if you went into a pool over here in pink speedo's you would still have a problem! lol just kidding,Totally agree with your comment.:-)
Paul-I think if you went into a pool over here in pink speedo's you would still have a problem! lol just kidding,Totally agree with your comment.:-)
Posted by: Free Thinker, oxford on 7:24pm Tue 13 Mar 07
One thing i find strange is why would anybody want to go in a sauna fully clothed? Oh yes because a religion say's so. Would all those who are ashamed by some of the comments made back the rights for a National Socialist to Goose step about the place in Jackboots and Swastikas? Probably not but that would be consistent in their support of people to behave according to their beliefs! This Multi cultural society is now becoming a multi directional mess.
One thing i find strange is why would anybody want to go in a sauna fully clothed? Oh yes because a religion say's so. Would all those who are ashamed by some of the comments made back the rights for a National Socialist to Goose step about the place in Jackboots and Swastikas? Probably not but that would be consistent in their support of people to behave according to their beliefs! This Multi cultural society is now becoming a multi directional mess.
Posted by: Paul, Witney on 8:51pm Tue 13 Mar 07
Completely agree free thinker - The whole phrase "multi cultural" is just a term given to modern name society to try and make it sound acceptable.
Sienna - If you ever want any photos sending let me know lol
Completely agree free thinker - The whole phrase "multi cultural" is just a term given to modern name society to try and make it sound acceptable.
Sienna - If you ever want any photos sending let me know lol
Posted by: Phil Rees, Oxon on 9:13pm Tue 13 Mar 07
I wish that people who say that they are proud to be British would, at least, spell British with a capital B.
I wish that people who say that they are proud to be British would, at least, spell British with a capital B.
Posted by: Andrew Jackson, Oxford on 9:38pm Tue 13 Mar 07
Thank you Anon for your comments. I am proud to be English and I feel sad that our English way of life that my grandfather fought so hard to defend is being eroded away piece by piece. All the time people seem to be burying their heads in the sand and allowing our once great country to be taken over by others. I hope you one day will wake up when all our beautiful churches are being demolished and mosques built in their place. Salaam!
Thank you Anon for your comments. I am proud to be English and I feel sad that our English way of life that my grandfather fought so hard to defend is being eroded away piece by piece. All the time people seem to be burying their heads in the sand and allowing our once great country to be taken over by others. I hope you one day will wake up when all our beautiful churches are being demolished and mosques built in their place. Salaam!
Posted by: kelbun, Chipping Norton on 10:51pm Tue 13 Mar 07
[quote][bold]Andrew Jackson[/bold] wrote:
Thank you Anon for your comments. I am proud to be English and I feel sad that our English way of life that my grandfather fought so hard to defend is being eroded away piece by piece. All the time people seem to be burying their heads in the sand and allowing our once great country to be taken over by others. I hope you one day will wake up when all our beautiful churches are being demolished and mosques built in their place. Salaam![/quote] "Here Here"[bold]bold[/bold]
Andrew Jackson wrote:
Thank you Anon for your comments. I am proud to be English and I feel sad that our English way of life that my grandfather fought so hard to defend is being eroded away piece by piece. All the time people seem to be burying their heads in the sand and allowing our once great country to be taken over by others. I hope you one day will wake up when all our beautiful churches are being demolished and mosques built in their place. Salaam!
"Here Here"
Posted by: Jenny on 2:16pm Wed 14 Mar 07
Andrew Jackson and Kelburn. Has it occured to you that you may be wrong, biggotted and ignorant? Particularly as Andrew Jackson's post actually had to be removed from this site due to it's racial hatred?
Andrew Jackson and Kelburn. Has it occured to you that you may be wrong, biggotted and ignorant? Particularly as Andrew Jackson's post actually had to be removed from this site due to it's racial hatred?
Posted by: Klaus Boerts, Bocholt, Germany on 1:08pm Thu 15 Mar 07
It's the same as in Germany. Also here Muslims are allowed to swim fully dressed. If they can't accept our rules, they should leave Europe!
It's the same as in Germany. Also here Muslims are allowed to swim fully dressed. If they can't accept our rules, they should leave Europe!
Posted by: terry c on 1:25am Mon 19 Mar 07
[quote][bold]Jenny[/bold] wrote:
I am ashamed to be british. Just look at yourselves and the ridiculous comments you are coming out with. Our own obsession with political correctness has caused this. We are one nation, we should have one set of rules and that would stop this segration. I am proud that our country accepts people from all heritages and I am utterly ashamed at the comments some of you are making. Do you feel the same about the people of french and german origin living in this country?[/quote] yep, especially the french
Jenny wrote:
I am ashamed to be british. Just look at yourselves and the ridiculous comments you are coming out with. Our own obsession with political correctness has caused this. We are one nation, we should have one set of rules and that would stop this segration. I am proud that our country accepts people from all heritages and I am utterly ashamed at the comments some of you are making. Do you feel the same about the people of french and german origin living in this country?
yep, especially the french
Posted by: Ayisha, London on 5:40pm Mon 19 Mar 07
"Fully dressed woman in sauna" ??? How ridiculous that today's media reporting so grossly distorts the facts. The woman was wearing a bathing suit which was designed with Muslim women in mind, and thus covers the required body parts. It perfectly meets health and safety guidelines, and as a bathing suit is not something new on the market. It has even been picked up by media outlets from Newsweek to National Geographic. The bikini was designed to expose as much of a woman's flesh and possible and this was designed to do the opposite. Why anyone should feel threatened bc a woman chooses to cover up, as opposed to exposing herself, is ludicrous. Each to their own, and as far as I was aware, women in the UK are supposed to have the right and freedom to choose how they wish to dress. The racism and prejudice oozing out of the comments is shocking and a reflection of a sad state of affairs.
"Fully dressed woman in sauna" ??? How ridiculous that today's media reporting so grossly distorts the facts. The woman was wearing a bathing suit which was designed with Muslim women in mind, and thus covers the required body parts. It perfectly meets health and safety guidelines, and as a bathing suit is not something new on the market. It has even been picked up by media outlets from Newsweek to National Geographic. The bikini was designed to expose as much of a woman's flesh and possible and this was designed to do the opposite. Why anyone should feel threatened bc a woman chooses to cover up, as opposed to exposing herself, is ludicrous. Each to their own, and as far as I was aware, women in the UK are supposed to have the right and freedom to choose how they wish to dress. The racism and prejudice oozing out of the comments is shocking and a reflection of a sad state of affairs.
Posted by: huh!?, London on 7:39am Fri 20 Apr 07
[quote][bold]Adam D[/bold] wrote:
Political Correctness gone mad. Either follow the countrys rules, or else theres the door. Religious beliefs my backside. Would they allow a naturist to swim nude?? [/quote] Um, I don't think naturism is a relgion
Adam D wrote:
Political Correctness gone mad. Either follow the countrys rules, or else theres the door. Religious beliefs my backside. Would they allow a naturist to swim nude??
Um, I don't think naturism is a relgion
Posted by: huh!?, London on 7:42am Fri 20 Apr 07
The woman in question was wearing a 5 piece swimsuit designed for muslim women. It's made of the same material as most swimmwear and, apparently, she'd been wearing it for six months at the health club before the somewhat misguided and overzealous "complaint."
As Oxford Mail did not think to get her side of the story, you might want to read it at:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,2061725,00.html
The woman in question was wearing a 5 piece swimsuit designed for muslim women. It's made of the same material as most swimmwear and, apparently, she'd been wearing it for six months at the health club before the somewhat misguided and overzealous "complaint."
As Oxford Mail did not think to get her side of the story, you might want to read it at:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,2061725,00.html
Posted by: John on 8:14am Fri 20 Apr 07
Shockingly shoddy if not irresponsible reporting by the Oxford Mail if only half of the story in The Guardian is true.
Shockingly shoddy if not irresponsible reporting by the Oxford Mail if only half of the story in The Guardian is true.
Posted by: Diarmuid, Manchester on 8:21am Fri 20 Apr 07
Let's be honest about things here: your objections about Manal Omar's swimsut are really because she is a Muslim. You can squeal that this has nothing to do with it, but Ian Caldwell wouldn't have opened his big mouth if he'd seen a white woman dressed in some nineteenth century swimwear. Nobody really ves a toss what people wear to the swimming pool. People DO give a toss about muslims...close-minded people like Caldwell and a lot of you here don't like Muslims at all.
As for whether or not "we" would be allowed to wear what we like in Muslim countries: I have lived in a Muslim country and can assure you that there a many Europeans wearing clothes that are inappropriate; many Europeans who stock up on alcohol; many Europeans who buy pork products; many Europeans who bu English newspapers; many Europeans who get paid European wages whilst their co-workers earn much less. So quit whining about how people who come to this country should accept "our" values or leave. The English are famed throughout the world for being particularly bad at assimilating to the culture of the country in which they find themselves. Next time you're in the Costa del Sol, you might want to consider that the fat, beered-up prawn shouting next to you might not be truly indicative of Spanish culture.
Let's be honest about things here: your objections about Manal Omar's swimsut are really because she is a Muslim. You can squeal that this has nothing to do with it, but Ian Caldwell wouldn't have opened his big mouth if he'd seen a white woman dressed in some nineteenth century swimwear. Nobody really ves a toss what people wear to the swimming pool. People DO give a toss about muslims...close-minded people like Caldwell and a lot of you here don't like Muslims at all.
As for whether or not "we" would be allowed to wear what we like in Muslim countries: I have lived in a Muslim country and can assure you that there a many Europeans wearing clothes that are inappropriate; many Europeans who stock up on alcohol; many Europeans who buy pork products; many Europeans who bu English newspapers; many Europeans who get paid European wages whilst their co-workers earn much less. So quit whining about how people who come to this country should accept "our" values or leave. The English are famed throughout the world for being particularly bad at assimilating to the culture of the country in which they find themselves. Next time you're in the Costa del Sol, you might want to consider that the fat, beered-up prawn shouting next to you might not be truly indicative of Spanish culture.
Posted by: mike docherty, Glasgow on 9:18am Fri 20 Apr 07
The paper, the "journalist" and those earlier commentators should hang their heads in shame! Read the Guardian article.
The paper, the "journalist" and those earlier commentators should hang their heads in shame! Read the Guardian article.
Posted by: Charlie, Manchester on 9:20am Fri 20 Apr 07
This is a one sided story. I suggest that you read what the lady in question has to say before making comments. Her article can be found at... http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,2061725,00.html
This is a one sided story. I suggest that you read what the lady in question has to say before making comments. Her article can be found at... http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,2061725,00.html
Posted by: Dave Hansell on 9:28am Fri 20 Apr 07
Its interesting and illuminating just how many people are prepared to instantly go half cocked into indignant mode over issues like this without ckecking the facts.
It's like a gang of bullies in a school playground who are clearly so inadequate that they have to find some excuse, no matter how far fetched to whinge about. For crying out loud since when did someone wanting to dress modestly whilst participating in leisure activities have anything to do with "British/English" values - whatever they are.
Perhaps if she'd bared her top and done a photo shoot for page 3 of the Sun that would have satisfied the pathetic bullies and cowards like Mr caldwell (whose behavior at this club in humiliating this educated and intelligent woman shames us all), and those who take the same view, that she was displaying the politically correct British/English values they espouse?
What I also find tiresome is people like Mr caldwell & those like him going off half cocked taking it upon themselves to not only define what "proper British/English" values are but to claim by default that they speak for the rest of us with their bigoted bullying attitudes.
A period of reflective silence on their part is probably the best contribution they can bring to this discussion.
Its interesting and illuminating just how many people are prepared to instantly go half cocked into indignant mode over issues like this without ckecking the facts.
It's like a gang of bullies in a school playground who are clearly so inadequate that they have to find some excuse, no matter how far fetched to whinge about. For crying out loud since when did someone wanting to dress modestly whilst participating in leisure activities have anything to do with "British/English" values - whatever they are.
Perhaps if she'd bared her top and done a photo shoot for page 3 of the Sun that would have satisfied the pathetic bullies and cowards like Mr caldwell (whose behavior at this club in humiliating this educated and intelligent woman shames us all), and those who take the same view, that she was displaying the politically correct British/English values they espouse?
What I also find tiresome is people like Mr caldwell & those like him going off half cocked taking it upon themselves to not only define what "proper British/English" values are but to claim by default that they speak for the rest of us with their bigoted bullying attitudes.
A period of reflective silence on their part is probably the best contribution they can bring to this discussion.
Posted by: steve, Oxford on 9:51am Fri 20 Apr 07
I found this story after reading the article in the guardian that's been cited above. I've got to admit that the behaviour of Mr Caldwell, the Oxford mail and to a certain extent DL gym makes me feel ashamed to live here. I'm vocally secular, and I think that some dress codes must be repected irrespective of faith (like school uniforms). However, in this case I have no objections.
Perhaps if more modest swimwear were widely available, the people who don't feel comfortable with their bodies might be happier to go swimming, Muslim or otherwise. The whole thing sounds like the 'political correctness gone crazy' lobby has gone crazy themselves here.
I found this story after reading the article in the guardian that's been cited above. I've got to admit that the behaviour of Mr Caldwell, the Oxford mail and to a certain extent DL gym makes me feel ashamed to live here. I'm vocally secular, and I think that some dress codes must be repected irrespective of faith (like school uniforms). However, in this case I have no objections.
Perhaps if more modest swimwear were widely available, the people who don't feel comfortable with their bodies might be happier to go swimming, Muslim or otherwise. The whole thing sounds like the 'political correctness gone crazy' lobby has gone crazy themselves here.
Posted by: Lizzy, London on 9:54am Fri 20 Apr 07
Poor reporting, one sided stories and prejudiced readers - I feel ashamed to come from a country where not only is a report like this published, but short-sighted, racist people are so quick to jump on the band wagon without engaging their brains.
Read the Guardian story. Oxford Mail - you should be embarrassed to publish something so unbalanced and intrinsically racist.
Poor reporting, one sided stories and prejudiced readers - I feel ashamed to come from a country where not only is a report like this published, but short-sighted, racist people are so quick to jump on the band wagon without engaging their brains.
Read the Guardian story. Oxford Mail - you should be embarrassed to publish something so unbalanced and intrinsically racist.
Posted by: truthhurts, london on 9:54am Fri 20 Apr 07
the most pathetic article I have ever read - you clowns in are so out of touch with the reality of choice and freedom it is shocking. Shame on you for even reporting this blatent xenophobic episode
the most pathetic article I have ever read - you clowns in are so out of touch with the reality of choice and freedom it is shocking. Shame on you for even reporting this blatent xenophobic episode
Posted by: Katie, Oxford on 10:24am Fri 20 Apr 07
Having read today's article in the Guardian regarding Manal Omar's treatment, after wearing perfectly reasonable swimwear, I am ashamed that someone can be treated this way in 'our country'. I always hoped, futile though it is, that people could see through the rubbish that is published in Newspapers, but it seems not. I am a Christian white 26-year-old woman and have never felt intimidated by Muslim's women's clothing choices. I do, however, feel intimidated by middle aged men who refer to women as “silly girls”.
Having read today's article in the Guardian regarding Manal Omar's treatment, after wearing perfectly reasonable swimwear, I am ashamed that someone can be treated this way in 'our country'. I always hoped, futile though it is, that people could see through the rubbish that is published in Newspapers, but it seems not. I am a Christian white 26-year-old woman and have never felt intimidated by Muslim's women's clothing choices. I do, however, feel intimidated by middle aged men who refer to women as “silly girls”.
Posted by: Anonymous Coward, London on 10:35am Fri 20 Apr 07
What a **** this Ian Caldwell bloke sounds like. I read the story in the Guardian then came to read the article here. What a dickhead.
What a **** this Ian Caldwell bloke sounds like. I read the story in the Guardian then came to read the article here. What a dickhead.
Posted by: Si Brandon, London on 10:44am Fri 20 Apr 07
"The decision has been condemned by club member Ian Caldwell"
This week: Ian Caldwell, a member of David Lloyd Fitness Clubs' Oxford gym, condemns brown people, A-line skirts and the sex discrimination act, and explains why 'string 'em up' is the only language they understand.
"The decision has been condemned by club member Ian Caldwell"
This week: Ian Caldwell, a member of David Lloyd Fitness Clubs' Oxford gym, condemns brown people, A-line skirts and the sex discrimination act, and explains why 'string 'em up' is the only language they understand.
Posted by: Paul on 10:58am Fri 20 Apr 07
Will the Oxford mail now have the guts to reproduce the Guardian's article from today by Manal Omar? Or will it be content to perpetuate stereotypes and pander to the likes of Caldwell? Which side are you on Fran Bardsley and Simon O'Neill?
Will the Oxford mail now have the guts to reproduce the Guardian's article from today by Manal Omar? Or will it be content to perpetuate stereotypes and pander to the likes of Caldwell? Which side are you on Fran Bardsley and Simon O'Neill?
Posted by: maggied, Glasgow on 11:02am Fri 20 Apr 07
So Oxford Mail- having obviously been completely biased and factually wrong in your coverage about this 'issue' you will be publishing a prominent apology/ correction/ retraction- won't you?
So Oxford Mail- having obviously been completely biased and factually wrong in your coverage about this 'issue' you will be publishing a prominent apology/ correction/ retraction- won't you?
Posted by: Elaine Harrison, Barcelona, Spain on 11:12am Fri 20 Apr 07
Dear Miss Omar, I've just read your article in the Guardian on-line and although it may not be of much comfort I would just like to say to you, inspite of all this madness, please go back to the swimming pool, live your life as you wish, dressed as you like because believe it or not there are still an awful lot of us out there who really don't mind how or why you dress differently". Chin up! E. Harrison
Dear Miss Omar, I've just read your article in the Guardian on-line and although it may not be of much comfort I would just like to say to you, inspite of all this madness, please go back to the swimming pool, live your life as you wish, dressed as you like because believe it or not there are still an awful lot of us out there who really don't mind how or why you dress differently". Chin up! E. Harrison
Posted by: Lily, nonbigotville on 11:22am Fri 20 Apr 07
I have just read the well researched version of this story, (the lady in question was indeed wearing a swimsuit, just an islamic style one) and this narrow minded version of events makes me laugh, but in a sad way. How do people still act like this to others without feeling ashamed!?
I have just read the well researched version of this story, (the lady in question was indeed wearing a swimsuit, just an islamic style one) and this narrow minded version of events makes me laugh, but in a sad way. How do people still act like this to others without feeling ashamed!?
Posted by: Peter on 11:30am Fri 20 Apr 07
Oh dear, poor Mr Caldwell. Unable to tell the difference between an islamic swimsuit and islamic clothing designed for the outside. Also, pity the Oxford Mail for failing to check the facts. It makes you wonder if you can believe anything that they print really.
Are you going to apologise Fran? I think you should.
Oh dear, poor Mr Caldwell. Unable to tell the difference between an islamic swimsuit and islamic clothing designed for the outside. Also, pity the Oxford Mail for failing to check the facts. It makes you wonder if you can believe anything that they print really.
Are you going to apologise Fran? I think you should.
Posted by: Kate, Oxford on 12:01pm Fri 20 Apr 07
I also saw the Guardian article and was shocked that Manal Omar had not even been contacted for her side of the story by the Oxford Mail.
I fail to see why what Ms Omar was wearing was any business of anyone else's - it was a swimsuit. People like Ian Caldwell do not have the right to dictate what others wear. The bigoted comments I have read above have made Ms Omar feel unwelcome here and leave a nasty taste in the mouth of Oxford residents such as me.
I also saw the Guardian article and was shocked that Manal Omar had not even been contacted for her side of the story by the Oxford Mail.
I fail to see why what Ms Omar was wearing was any business of anyone else's - it was a swimsuit. People like Ian Caldwell do not have the right to dictate what others wear. The bigoted comments I have read above have made Ms Omar feel unwelcome here and leave a nasty taste in the mouth of Oxford residents such as me.
Posted by: Mark, Oxford on 12:15pm Fri 20 Apr 07
What an absolute disgrace this article is, an appalling piece of lame bandwagon jumping by the Oxford Mail.
Mr Caldwell paints himself as a bigot whose pathetic world views only highlight his own limitations
I am a member of this gym and I am absolutely disgusted with the way this woman has been treated. She is a member who pays her fees just like the rest of us
Yes her swimsuit is appropriate and Yes it is hygenic
I have absolutely no issue with her swimming at the gym and have been greatly saddened to hear that she now does not wish to return to the gy. What a sad sad end to a piece of thoughtless behaviour by Ian Caldwell who should have known better.
Ms Omar if you read this please return to the gym where I am certain you will find Ian Caldwell an isolated figure.
Mr Caldwell if you are reading this I would suggest you be the one to take yourself elsewhere. You are not welcome at Oxford David Lloyd
What an absolute disgrace this article is, an appalling piece of lame bandwagon jumping by the Oxford Mail.
Mr Caldwell paints himself as a bigot whose pathetic world views only highlight his own limitations
I am a member of this gym and I am absolutely disgusted with the way this woman has been treated. She is a member who pays her fees just like the rest of us
Yes her swimsuit is appropriate and Yes it is hygenic
I have absolutely no issue with her swimming at the gym and have been greatly saddened to hear that she now does not wish to return to the gy. What a sad sad end to a piece of thoughtless behaviour by Ian Caldwell who should have known better.
Ms Omar if you read this please return to the gym where I am certain you will find Ian Caldwell an isolated figure.
Mr Caldwell if you are reading this I would suggest you be the one to take yourself elsewhere. You are not welcome at Oxford David Lloyd
Posted by: Dan, oxford on 12:34pm Fri 20 Apr 07
What we should all be told is who pushed this story onto the newswires in the first place?
The way this story has so quickly permeated through stories around the world indicates a depressing thirst for bigotted anti-muslim reporting.
The Oxford Mail should be ashamed of itself for setting this ugly story in motion
and issue a full apology to Ms Omar.
What we should all be told is who pushed this story onto the newswires in the first place?
The way this story has so quickly permeated through stories around the world indicates a depressing thirst for bigotted anti-muslim reporting.
The Oxford Mail should be ashamed of itself for setting this ugly story in motion
and issue a full apology to Ms Omar.
Posted by: Patrick Sweeney, Canterbury on 12:39pm Fri 20 Apr 07
So in the 60s, everyone complained that swimsuits were too revealing, and now somebody wears a, admittedly unconventional swimsuit to a local pool, and gets the kind of frankly racist abuse we read above - it is times like this that I think it is you Daily Mail readers are the people who should be kicked out of the country.
Britain is, in my opinion, the greatest example of multiculturalism on the face of the globe, and I am extremely proud of the acceptance that the vast majority of the British public show in the face of the troubled times in which we live.
If Ms. Omar wishes to wear her 'inappropriate' swimwear in a sauna, whose business is it really but hers? Ok, so I personally wouldn't want to wear such garments in there - they make me sweat enough as it is - but to suggest that she should not be allowed to wear a perfectly safe and hygenic garment, simply because of one mans sheer racism and bigotry is appaling.
'Political correctness gone mad' is a phrase that has now been overused to the point that it has lost its meaning.
So in the 60s, everyone complained that swimsuits were too revealing, and now somebody wears a, admittedly unconventional swimsuit to a local pool, and gets the kind of frankly racist abuse we read above - it is times like this that I think it is you Daily Mail readers are the people who should be kicked out of the country.
Britain is, in my opinion, the greatest example of multiculturalism on the face of the globe, and I am extremely proud of the acceptance that the vast majority of the British public show in the face of the troubled times in which we live.
If Ms. Omar wishes to wear her 'inappropriate' swimwear in a sauna, whose business is it really but hers? Ok, so I personally wouldn't want to wear such garments in there - they make me sweat enough as it is - but to suggest that she should not be allowed to wear a perfectly safe and hygenic garment, simply because of one mans sheer racism and bigotry is appaling.
'Political correctness gone mad' is a phrase that has now been overused to the point that it has lost its meaning.
Posted by: Rob, London on 12:43pm Fri 20 Apr 07
I applaud the Guardian for giving Ms Omar a platform to give her side of the story. I am disheartened by the knee-jerk reaction (at best) and racist overtones (at worst) of both Mr Caldwell and the Oxford Mail. Lazy, jingoistic reporting that helps no-one, and adds to inaccurate stereotypes and perceptions
I applaud the Guardian for giving Ms Omar a platform to give her side of the story. I am disheartened by the knee-jerk reaction (at best) and racist overtones (at worst) of both Mr Caldwell and the Oxford Mail. Lazy, jingoistic reporting that helps no-one, and adds to inaccurate stereotypes and perceptions
Posted by: Patrick Sweeney, Canterbury on 12:44pm Fri 20 Apr 07
PS Many apologies for the numerous grammatical and spelling errors in my post above - I wrote it in a bit of a rage!
PS Many apologies for the numerous grammatical and spelling errors in my post above - I wrote it in a bit of a rage!
Posted by: Charlotte, London on 12:54pm Fri 20 Apr 07
I personally am feeling very ashamed to be British after reading Ms Bardsley's article and then the Guardian article by Ms Omar. I agree with everyone else who has read her side and posted above. So I haven't much more to add, except that I would like to apologise to Ms Omar if you are reading this, on behalf of people who are clearly not bright enough to know any better. (To Andrew Jackson: it's 'hear hear' you know! Not that I would ever agree with you and your views.)
Racist bigotry, and unreasoned hatred of the unfamiliar, are sadly all too common in the UK. Ms Omar, I sincerely hope that, during your stay here, you will meet more sympathetic and people who are willing to see beyond the 'Muslim label' you seem to have been assigned!
(Oxford Mail = Daily Mail)
I personally am feeling very ashamed to be British after reading Ms Bardsley's article and then the Guardian article by Ms Omar. I agree with everyone else who has read her side and posted above. So I haven't much more to add, except that I would like to apologise to Ms Omar if you are reading this, on behalf of people who are clearly not bright enough to know any better. (To Andrew Jackson: it's 'hear hear' you know! Not that I would ever agree with you and your views.)
Racist bigotry, and unreasoned hatred of the unfamiliar, are sadly all too common in the UK. Ms Omar, I sincerely hope that, during your stay here, you will meet more sympathetic and people who are willing to see beyond the 'Muslim label' you seem to have been assigned!
(Oxford Mail = Daily Mail)
Posted by: James, South England on 12:56pm Fri 20 Apr 07
Dear Oxford Mail & Caldwell. What is the matter with you bigoted imbeciles?
You find this offensive? an individual going about there business in their own choice of clothing. No offensive slogans on her clothes. Not barging about swearing at the top of her voice. Not expecting other people to do what she wants. There has been multi cultural immigration to this great country since the 14th century. This is England, we stood alone against the third reich to allow people their personal freedom. As "journalists" you should be ashamed. You haven't approached this lady for her side of the story. This proves that you are a bunch of unprofessional hacks who are running your own bigoted agenda. I'm truely disgusted with those in this nation who can't wait to attack a person because they are different.
Dear Ms Omar
Please don't let this idiot stear any of your decisions. We can't let these people degrade our society. Please, keep on swimming.
Dear Oxford Mail & Caldwell. What is the matter with you bigoted imbeciles?
You find this offensive? an individual going about there business in their own choice of clothing. No offensive slogans on her clothes. Not barging about swearing at the top of her voice. Not expecting other people to do what she wants. There has been multi cultural immigration to this great country since the 14th century. This is England, we stood alone against the third reich to allow people their personal freedom. As "journalists" you should be ashamed. You haven't approached this lady for her side of the story. This proves that you are a bunch of unprofessional hacks who are running your own bigoted agenda. I'm truely disgusted with those in this nation who can't wait to attack a person because they are different.
Dear Ms Omar
Please don't let this idiot stear any of your decisions. We can't let these people degrade our society. Please, keep on swimming.
Posted by: Simon O'Neill, Oxford Mail on 1:02pm Fri 20 Apr 07
Manal Omar is right about one thing at least. There are two sides to every story. What a pity she did not give us her's at the time, or after publication of our story about her going for a swim at an Oxford pool in a 'costume' designed for Muslim women.
We take strong issue with the G2 article about Ms Omar's experiences in several respects, particularly the inaccurate claim that we at the Oxford Mail chose to ignore her version of events.
On the contrary, we were desperate to contact Ms Omar and speak with her, as it would have made for a far more interesting piece. However, we did not know her identity and had no way of finding it out. Unlike some national newspapers, we refuse to use underhand or illegal methods to track people down.
Therefore, the story ran as it was, based on confirmation from the leisure centre and people who were there at the time.
We have no record of Ms Omar contacting us via our website and if she did, we would have that on our system.
We have now tracked her down and asked her for an interview. She has declined.
Our story was a legitimate one, as the issue of traditional outfits worn by Islamic women is the subject of a debate nationwide. We would be failing in our duty if we chose not to report it for fear of causing upset and we stand by it as an accurate report based on the facts that we had at the time.
We reject the allegation (based on a few idiots responding to the story online) that the Oxford Mail and its readers are overwhelmingly anti-Muslim or indeed racist. On the contrary, this is one of the most tolerant cities in Britain and this newspaper strives to reflect that. A trawl though our archives will prove that beyond any doubt.
If the Guardian or Ms Omar had thought of contacting us before publication of this article, we could have been given an opportunity to put our version of events. We would have been happy to respond and add to the debate. But that might have weakened her story, so it's probably best that she did not bother.
The outcome was the very thing we have been wrongly accused of: a sensationalist, one-sided article which labelled a modern, multi-cultural city and the staff of its local newspaper as a bunch of reactionary rednecks.
Simon O'Neill, editor, Oxford Mail
Manal Omar is right about one thing at least. There are two sides to every story. What a pity she did not give us her's at the time, or after publication of our story about her going for a swim at an Oxford pool in a 'costume' designed for Muslim women.
We take strong issue with the G2 article about Ms Omar's experiences in several respects, particularly the inaccurate claim that we at the Oxford Mail chose to ignore her version of events.
On the contrary, we were desperate to contact Ms Omar and speak with her, as it would have made for a far more interesting piece. However, we did not know her identity and had no way of finding it out. Unlike some national newspapers, we refuse to use underhand or illegal methods to track people down.
Therefore, the story ran as it was, based on confirmation from the leisure centre and people who were there at the time.
We have no record of Ms Omar contacting us via our website and if she did, we would have that on our system.
We have now tracked her down and asked her for an interview. She has declined.
Our story was a legitimate one, as the issue of traditional outfits worn by Islamic women is the subject of a debate nationwide. We would be failing in our duty if we chose not to report it for fear of causing upset and we stand by it as an accurate report based on the facts that we had at the time.
We reject the allegation (based on a few idiots responding to the story online) that the Oxford Mail and its readers are overwhelmingly anti-Muslim or indeed racist. On the contrary, this is one of the most tolerant cities in Britain and this newspaper strives to reflect that. A trawl though our archives will prove that beyond any doubt.
If the Guardian or Ms Omar had thought of contacting us before publication of this article, we could have been given an opportunity to put our version of events. We would have been happy to respond and add to the debate. But that might have weakened her story, so it's probably best that she did not bother.
The outcome was the very thing we have been wrongly accused of: a sensationalist, one-sided article which labelled a modern, multi-cultural city and the staff of its local newspaper as a bunch of reactionary rednecks.
Simon O'Neill, editor, Oxford Mail
Posted by: James, Brighton on 1:08pm Fri 20 Apr 07
I agree, Charlotte - Oxford Mail = Daily Mail. What a sad state of affairs, both from that Caldwell character and the journalist. I can't believe it never occured to Fran Bardsley to get Manal's side of the story. But I suppose that's what you get from a small minded, amateurish, local paper. I fully support Manal Omar.
I agree, Charlotte - Oxford Mail = Daily Mail. What a sad state of affairs, both from that Caldwell character and the journalist. I can't believe it never occured to Fran Bardsley to get Manal's side of the story. But I suppose that's what you get from a small minded, amateurish, local paper. I fully support Manal Omar.
Posted by: Lilly, nonbigotville on 1:12pm Fri 20 Apr 07
Actually according to Ms. Omar she did contact the Oxford Mail offering her story. Despite your response the journalism displayed was exceedingly bad. No amount of explanation will absolve the fact that bigotry and prejudice has been displayed via this newspaper. I hope people the world over realise not everyone in Britain is like this. And i think it's hypocrticial to be calling the people responding to this story "idiots".
Actually according to Ms. Omar she did contact the Oxford Mail offering her story. Despite your response the journalism displayed was exceedingly bad. No amount of explanation will absolve the fact that bigotry and prejudice has been displayed via this newspaper. I hope people the world over realise not everyone in Britain is like this. And i think it's hypocrticial to be calling the people responding to this story "idiots".
Posted by: Lucy Henderson, Paris on 1:12pm Fri 20 Apr 07
You couldn't have tried THAT hard to track her down.
Surely the David Lloyd leisure centre would have her membership details on file?
You couldn't have tried THAT hard to track her down.
Surely the David Lloyd leisure centre would have her membership details on file?
Posted by: Yolande knight on 1:16pm Fri 20 Apr 07
It is staggering that someone wearing something slightly out of the norm should bring about such a storm of ignorant nonsense. How threatened these people must feel, to react as such. I applaud Ms Omar in finding something to wear that allows her to do what she wants according to her own needs. I would never wear a string bikini to swim in (if you swim well, string bikinis are not really practical), but there doesn't seem to be any noise about women wearing those in pools.
I once had to swim behind a man wearing a white see-through thong in a public swimming pool (50m). That was quite upsetting.
It is staggering that someone wearing something slightly out of the norm should bring about such a storm of ignorant nonsense. How threatened these people must feel, to react as such. I applaud Ms Omar in finding something to wear that allows her to do what she wants according to her own needs. I would never wear a string bikini to swim in (if you swim well, string bikinis are not really practical), but there doesn't seem to be any noise about women wearing those in pools.
I once had to swim behind a man wearing a white see-through thong in a public swimming pool (50m). That was quite upsetting.
Posted by: LW Jolly, Reading, Berks. on 1:19pm Fri 20 Apr 07
So I looked at the pictures of this swimming costume. How on earth did you get 'traditional floor length robe' out of THAT? It's a wetsuit with a minidress on top and a little head thing. Jesus. I reckon it's going to destroy Western Civilisation all right! You lot say you tried to contact her and couldn't. She says she tried to contact you and you never responded. I find her a lot more beleivable considering the tone of the article.
So I looked at the pictures of this swimming costume. How on earth did you get 'traditional floor length robe' out of THAT? It's a wetsuit with a minidress on top and a little head thing. Jesus. I reckon it's going to destroy Western Civilisation all right! You lot say you tried to contact her and couldn't. She says she tried to contact you and you never responded. I find her a lot more beleivable considering the tone of the article.
Posted by: Stu, London on 1:19pm Fri 20 Apr 07
No way of finding out her identity.... er are you reporters.... ask the David Lloyd club, I seem to recall this being a members club, where presumably they might have membership details - it being a MEMBERS club remember. If they were reluctant to give out details like that, and i hope they would be, they could have at least contacted her on your behalf.
Also at no point did anyone not question the fact that it might be fairly impractical to go swimming in the full regalia (hijab etc.)?
No way of finding out her identity.... er are you reporters.... ask the David Lloyd club, I seem to recall this being a members club, where presumably they might have membership details - it being a MEMBERS club remember. If they were reluctant to give out details like that, and i hope they would be, they could have at least contacted her on your behalf.
Also at no point did anyone not question the fact that it might be fairly impractical to go swimming in the full regalia (hijab etc.)?
Posted by: Colo on 1:29pm Fri 20 Apr 07
I cannot belived this... Britain a countryu that talks about freedon and you cannot let a woman feel free in her own convictions!!! And is better to search de information before saying whar=t ever. This swimming suite is special made for musulim women, to swim. Is not like if she had taken out from her closet a pijama to wear in the pool. It is really a shame to speak of freedom but being incapable of tolerating somebody that doesn't do what you do and worst, with somthing as stupid as a swimming suite!!!
I cannot belived this... Britain a countryu that talks about freedon and you cannot let a woman feel free in her own convictions!!! And is better to search de information before saying whar=t ever. This swimming suite is special made for musulim women, to swim. Is not like if she had taken out from her closet a pijama to wear in the pool. It is really a shame to speak of freedom but being incapable of tolerating somebody that doesn't do what you do and worst, with somthing as stupid as a swimming suite!!!
Posted by: Adrian, Maidenhead on 1:32pm Fri 20 Apr 07
I am honestly dumbfounded that the Oxford Mail can be so journalistically lazy. We all know there's bigoted idots out there, but more is expected of a newspaper and its reporters.
I am honestly dumbfounded that the Oxford Mail can be so journalistically lazy. We all know there's bigoted idots out there, but more is expected of a newspaper and its reporters.
Posted by: KK, Sheffield on 1:35pm Fri 20 Apr 07
The Oxford Mail got its facts wrong. Instead of defending their incompetence, they should be issuing an apology and retracting their story.
The Oxford Mail got its facts wrong. Instead of defending their incompetence, they should be issuing an apology and retracting their story.
Posted by: Arfur, oxford on 1:40pm Fri 20 Apr 07
Ah the chattering classes and their moral indignation.
I agree with Manal Omar - she should be allowed to wear whatever she wants and it is clear that Mr Caldwell has a bit of an agenda.
But you lot with your finger pointing are ridiculous. It's no wonder us Guardian readers have a bad name.
I read the Oxford Mail regularly. It's not perfect but bigoted and racist it is not. Look at the link below for a follow up story they did to Ms Omar's story. And remember this was printed a month ago - long before the Guardian printed its horrific one-sided story.
I can imagine David Lloyd would not give out Ms Omar's number and probably wouldn't be too keen on tracking her down so the whole thing might blow over. However, what is the Guardian's excuse for not contacting staff at the Mail? Their number and contact details are easy to obtain.
The Oxford Mail says it didn't receive anything from Ms Omar - perhaps it isn't a conspiracy but a mistake at one end or another?
Anyway don't let the facts get in the way of your blind PC thuggery.
http://www.oxfordmail.net/search/display.var.1267335.0.muslim_urges_keep_swimming.php
Ah the chattering classes and their moral indignation.
I agree with Manal Omar - she should be allowed to wear whatever she wants and it is clear that Mr Caldwell has a bit of an agenda.
But you lot with your finger pointing are ridiculous. It's no wonder us Guardian readers have a bad name.
I read the Oxford Mail regularly. It's not perfect but bigoted and racist it is not. Look at the link below for a follow up story they did to Ms Omar's story. And remember this was printed a month ago - long before the Guardian printed its horrific one-sided story.
I can imagine David Lloyd would not give out Ms Omar's number and probably wouldn't be too keen on tracking her down so the whole thing might blow over. However, what is the Guardian's excuse for not contacting staff at the Mail? Their number and contact details are easy to obtain.
The Oxford Mail says it didn't receive anything from Ms Omar - perhaps it isn't a conspiracy but a mistake at one end or another?
Anyway don't let the facts get in the way of your blind PC thuggery.
http://www.oxfordmail.net/search/display.var.1267335.0.muslim_urges_keep_swimming.php
Posted by: Richard, wales on 1:48pm Fri 20 Apr 07
Mr O'Neill - the root problem with your story is that it is factually incorrect. Manal Omal was not wearing "traditional headdress and garb", she was wearing a swimming costume designed for muslim women. Because of that fundamental mistake, the angle of the story is misconceived, and the story itself is misleading and inaccurate, and, as such, arguably designed to pander to anti-muslim paranoia.
Your reporter may have been wrong-footed by the manager's comments, and whatever difficulties you may have had in tracking Ms Omal down, the fact remains - your story was factually incorrect and for that you should apologise. Are you going to?
Mr O'Neill - the root problem with your story is that it is factually incorrect. Manal Omal was not wearing "traditional headdress and garb", she was wearing a swimming costume designed for muslim women. Because of that fundamental mistake, the angle of the story is misconceived, and the story itself is misleading and inaccurate, and, as such, arguably designed to pander to anti-muslim paranoia.
Your reporter may have been wrong-footed by the manager's comments, and whatever difficulties you may have had in tracking Ms Omal down, the fact remains - your story was factually incorrect and for that you should apologise. Are you going to?
Posted by: Dave Hansell, Sheffield on 1:58pm Fri 20 Apr 07
Sorry Mr O'Neil, as my old Sergeant used to say "you are talking bullshit lad."
Your pitiful attempt to wiggle your way out of responsibility for your sloppy journalism won't wash.
The fact that your first point of call after taking the word of the sad excuse for an Englishman Mr Caldwell and the manager of the facility was to get a quote from a lcoal Muslim "community leader." If a newspaper of your size cannot easily track down this lady to get her side of the story you could not have been trying very hard - particularly when she did contact your paper and recieved no response back before the article was printed.
Trying to blame the victim of your actions for not contacting you after this rabid piece of gutter journalism is also despicable. If I'd have been in the same or similar position, having been humiliated and lied about in public and had that humiliation amplified in the way you have done I certainly would not bother with you as you've clearly nailed your colours to the mast in terms of where you and your paper are coming from.
What is clear is that like Mr Caldwell you have no idea whatsoever about what real British/English values actually are.
If you had put your hands up in response to this comment thread and said OK, fair cop, we screwed up we are sorry, most reasonable people would have given you the benefit of the doubt.
Now all you have done is blown that opportunity by pouring further oil on the fire trying to excuse the inexcusable.
Sorry Mr O'Neil, as my old Sergeant used to say "you are talking bullshit lad."
Your pitiful attempt to wiggle your way out of responsibility for your sloppy journalism won't wash.
The fact that your first point of call after taking the word of the sad excuse for an Englishman Mr Caldwell and the manager of the facility was to get a quote from a lcoal Muslim "community leader." If a newspaper of your size cannot easily track down this lady to get her side of the story you could not have been trying very hard - particularly when she did contact your paper and recieved no response back before the article was printed.
Trying to blame the victim of your actions for not contacting you after this rabid piece of gutter journalism is also despicable. If I'd have been in the same or similar position, having been humiliated and lied about in public and had that humiliation amplified in the way you have done I certainly would not bother with you as you've clearly nailed your colours to the mast in terms of where you and your paper are coming from.
What is clear is that like Mr Caldwell you have no idea whatsoever about what real British/English values actually are.
If you had put your hands up in response to this comment thread and said OK, fair cop, we screwed up we are sorry, most reasonable people would have given you the benefit of the doubt.
Now all you have done is blown that opportunity by pouring further oil on the fire trying to excuse the inexcusable.
Posted by: Jose, Oxford on 2:05pm Fri 20 Apr 07
The attempt by the Oxford editor to justify this article is pathetic. How many of the people who supposedly corroborated Ian Caldwell's story were eyewitnesses to the incident? And since when did criticism of the Oxford Mail become criticism of all of Oxford? It is the paper which is dragging the city's name through the mud with it's vile reporting.
If Simon O'Neill and Fran Bardsley cannot bring themselves to apoligise they should be sacked.
The attempt by the Oxford editor to justify this article is pathetic. How many of the people who supposedly corroborated Ian Caldwell's story were eyewitnesses to the incident? And since when did criticism of the Oxford Mail become criticism of all of Oxford? It is the paper which is dragging the city's name through the mud with it's vile reporting.
If Simon O'Neill and Fran Bardsley cannot bring themselves to apoligise they should be sacked.
Posted by: Richard, Wales on 2:21pm Fri 20 Apr 07
As suggested by another poster, I looked at the Oxford Mail's follow-up story about a muslim woman urging other muslim women not to give up swimming. The basic mistake of the original story is repeated in the follow-up but take a look at the posted comments. They are horrendous. Mr O'Neill - are you happy that your paper is giving a platform to comments like that?
As suggested by another poster, I looked at the Oxford Mail's follow-up story about a muslim woman urging other muslim women not to give up swimming. The basic mistake of the original story is repeated in the follow-up but take a look at the posted comments. They are horrendous. Mr O'Neill - are you happy that your paper is giving a platform to comments like that?
Posted by: bee, Oxford on 2:25pm Fri 20 Apr 07
What an utterly pathetic, lazy piece of journalism. She was not wearing a "floor-length dress", nor was she "fully dressed" - she was wearing a body covering bathing suit. What a strange pass we have come to when a woman showing *no flesh* is condemned for "dressing inappropriately."
She was not harming anyone, or forcing her views on anyone - so why are so many of you so cheerfully condemning this poor woman? I am utterly ashamed to live in this city sometimes.
What an utterly pathetic, lazy piece of journalism. She was not wearing a "floor-length dress", nor was she "fully dressed" - she was wearing a body covering bathing suit. What a strange pass we have come to when a woman showing *no flesh* is condemned for "dressing inappropriately."
She was not harming anyone, or forcing her views on anyone - so why are so many of you so cheerfully condemning this poor woman? I am utterly ashamed to live in this city sometimes.
Posted by: Dave Hansell, Sheffield on 2:30pm Fri 20 Apr 07
To respond to "Arfurs" point with his URL link to another Oxford Mail story.
Arfur, I think you are missing the point. An [italic]individual[/italic] was publicly humiliated, patronised and bullied at this facility and then found themselves the subject of the same behavior through this newspaper article with no serious attempt to get her side of the story before going to print.
What the Oxford Mail choose to highlight through this incident affecting an [italic]individual[/italic] was to use it to not only further humiliate the [italic]individual[/italic] but also to widen it out to a specific [italic]community[/italic].
The link you have provided again focuses on the collective and again totaly ignores the individual victim.
I'll repeat, the onus is not on the individual victim to chase up the newspaper before and after the fact. When someone mugs YOU in the street you don't go round to there house to seek redress and remonstrate with them you go elsewher, to the police.
This is what this [italic]individual[/italic] lady has done here. After being ignored by the Oxford Mail and treated shabbily as an [italic]individual[/italic] - used by the paper to provide a platform for the brain-dead bigots amongst us that give us all a bad name - she has gone elswhere for redress.
I'd suggest in the same circumstances you would do the same. As would most people.
The attempt at diverting the issue towards "politically correct Guardian reading finger pointers" is almost as desperate Mr O'Neil's excuses.
To respond to "Arfurs" point with his URL link to another Oxford Mail story.
Arfur, I think you are missing the point. An
individual was publicly humiliated, patronised and bullied at this facility and then found themselves the subject of the same behavior through this newspaper article with no serious attempt to get her side of the story before going to print.
What the Oxford Mail choose to highlight through this incident affecting an
individual was to use it to not only further humiliate the
individual but also to widen it out to a specific
community.
The link you have provided again focuses on the collective and again totaly ignores the individual victim.
I'll repeat, the onus is not on the individual victim to chase up the newspaper before and after the fact. When someone mugs YOU in the street you don't go round to there house to seek redress and remonstrate with them you go elsewher, to the police.
This is what this
individual lady has done here. After being ignored by the Oxford Mail and treated shabbily as an
individual - used by the paper to provide a platform for the brain-dead bigots amongst us that give us all a bad name - she has gone elswhere for redress.
I'd suggest in the same circumstances you would do the same. As would most people.
The attempt at diverting the issue towards "politically correct Guardian reading finger pointers" is almost as desperate Mr O'Neil's excuses.
Posted by: tarquin, oxford on 3:12pm Fri 20 Apr 07
It's good to see the herd instinct, group-think reaction of the chattering classes is alive and well.
When there's a story about Muslims, immigration or race, the Oxford Mail website usually beseiged with lots of crap from BNP activists in Lancashire. Now it's being beseiged by sheeple in London and Kent. You self-righteous twerps - you're clearly less bothered about Muslims than just having a Friday rant. I'm as sick of you lot as I am the rightwing illiterates.
Alas I am a Guardian reader - but only on Saturday when it's got the Guide section in it (which almost certainly saves the Saturday paper from sinking into oblivion)
It's good to see the herd instinct, group-think reaction of the chattering classes is alive and well.
When there's a story about Muslims, immigration or race, the Oxford Mail website usually beseiged with lots of crap from BNP activists in Lancashire. Now it's being beseiged by sheeple in London and Kent. You self-righteous twerps - you're clearly less bothered about Muslims than just having a Friday rant. I'm as sick of you lot as I am the rightwing illiterates.
Alas I am a Guardian reader - but only on Saturday when it's got the Guide section in it (which almost certainly saves the Saturday paper from sinking into oblivion)
Posted by: mike docherty, Glasgow on 3:17pm Fri 20 Apr 07
Mr O'Neill - despite your attempts to justify your coverage of this story it seems clear that the ac
